Episode 409 – Who Really Controls Your Data in the Age of AI? – Why Is The Internet Broken?

Justin Parisi: I’m here in the basement of my house and with me today. I have Adam Gale coming all the way to us from Dubai.

So Adam. What do you do here at NetApp and how do I reach you?

Adam Gale: I’m a field CTO for cybersecurity and artificial intelligence, which are actually quite intrinsically linked. You end up talking about one, you end up talking about the other. As you probably know, with artificial intelligence gaining traction in the cybersecurity world.

Justin Parisi: Yeah. Yeah. So let’s talk a little bit more about that ’cause I think that’s pretty interesting. AI is used for a lot of things and most people use it for creating an image, a meme, or doing their homework, right? But there are other very interesting use cases and sometimes a little scary.

And one of those is, cybersecurity and hacking. So what are you seeing out there with regards to how that’s being implemented today? And I know we could see the future being a lot darker for that or brighter if you’re on the cybersecurity side. So tell me what you think.

Speaker 3: Being on the cybersecurity side, I definitely see the future as brighter.

But I’m an eternal optimist, I would say. And here in Dubai, actually, they’re going to great strides to use artificial intelligence for the good of lack of a better word, using it and infusing it into cyber resiliency. So protecting customers in banking industries or simple things like when you go to pay your water bill.

They use it in there. So I see a lot of it. I mean, the obvious new examples here are pattern recognition being able to tell if somebody is who they say they are. So from my perspective, I see AI as being a good thing for cybersecurity. Now, obviously it’s gonna be used for bad things. Security Is a double-edged sword, but the eternal optimist in me likes to think it’s gonna be a good thing.

Justin Parisi: Yeah, I see it kind of as like a giant rock em, sock em robot, each side just punching at each other, repeatedly until one of them breaks through. So that’s the cybersecurity side of things. I know that at NetApp we also use AI within our products specifically when we’re talking about the autonomous ransomware protection where we can detect anomalies and then create snapshots and try to protect the data that way.

Where do you see that fitting into that type of use case? When we’re talking about cyber resiliency?

Adam Gale: I personally think that’s probably one of the most strongest use cases for it. As we always say, we’re the protector of the crown jewels. It’s one of the most important assets in your business, so much so that they’re writing new rules and figuring out ways to quantify how much data is valuable to you.

So the money people are writing on their balance sheet, that’s how important our data is becoming. And using it in this respect to protect your data. Is the last line of defense. So incredibly important, but it goes up and down the value chain, I’d say all the way from the application, all the way through the transit layer, protection the data.

So absolutely, and one of my favorite anecdotes about that ransomware protection is I remember talking to somebody, and don’t quote me on this being true or not, but they said they tested it in the toughest environment on the planet. And I said, what do you mean? Where did you test our ransomware products?

The toughest on the planet? And said, can you have a guess? People are up all night. They’re often inebriated. They’re logging in anytime that they want. And they’re submitting essays at two in the morning. And it clicked. Universities, they tested it at universities where people have no pattern, no structure, and a university students to submit thesis all over the time.

It was able to learn people’s patterns and still give a really positive result. I think it was 99.9%. So I love that little anecdotal story, but don’t quote me on it being true ’cause the person was smiling when they told me.

Justin Parisi: Oh yeah, yeah. You never know what’s true anymore. So speaking of that, we talk about ai, there’s a lot of discussion about how it has false positives, it hallucinates. When we’re dealing with cybersecurity, that could be extremely problematic. So what are some of the guardrails and safeguards that are in place to try to mitigate that hallucination that happens with ai?

Adam Gale: Yeah, that’s a really good point though.

And it’s something that we’re seeing more as an industry term, as human in the loop. And it’s keeping human in the loop in all major decision making processes. So not just cybersecurity, by the way. It’s in everything. If it’s going to affect critical decisions or critical infrastructure.

Let’s take the obvious example of healthcare. If a healthcare professional was going to be making a diagnosis based on medical images like a broken bone, and the AI says, yep, that’s a broken bone. Human in the loop needs to be there. Human needs to say, I agree with that. And we can’t really get rid of this for any foreseeable time future. The same thing for routing trains around networks or doing anything really that has a safety component. If this has an element of safety in it, absolutely need to have those guardrails of a human in the loop. Then all the cascading requirements underneath that.

I think they’re quite well documented now. We seem to be getting better at this. Things like logs. Who made that decision? Why was that decision made? Keep those logs secure somewhere and look for outliers, look for anomalies as well. So definitely those are some of the areas we need to be looking at.

Justin Parisi: Sounds like a lot of the tenets for cybersecurity apply to AI as well. The whole trust but verify, right? So we really gotta make sure that what you’re getting is real.

Adam Gale: Yes it does. It feels like a lot of the tools and the processes we’ve developed over the years for other problems, we can actually apply to ai which is good.

We don’t need to reinvent the wheel all the time. We can just use the stuff that we know works. So, absolutely. I agree with that.

Justin Parisi: So you wanted to talk about something called data sovereignty, and I wanted to understand a little bit more about what that means to you. You know, words are words, but there’s probably some extra meaning that goes along with that terminology.

Adam Gale: That is a really good place to start actually. Because when I’ve discussed this with the field, and this came to me through senior leadership they asked me to look into it. ’cause the field was talking about this a lot. When I did talk to our customers or our sales teams, or se, everyone has a different understanding of what data sovereignty is.

And I started documenting it because it means different things to different people. And the word sovereignty has also become quite charged word now I think it means different things in different countries. So this is off the back of some of the things that have been happening in the European Union. For example, you may have seen Microsoft in French court discussing with the French government what would happen if the US invoke the Cloud Act. Now, the Cloud Act basically allows the US government to reach into businesses in the European Union into their data centers if they’re run by Microsoft and into Microsoft products, et cetera, and take that data.

And obviously there’s lots of concerns about that, and these have been enacted. The government has asked Microsoft to do this. Microsoft, quite rightly, published on their website all the times they’ve been asked. And they’re quite open about it. But what was kind of difficult for everyone to really digest was they were in court and they admitted it and said, yes, we’ll give it.

So the question now becomes and is growing. What happens if that happens to me? Am I okay with that? And can I protect myself against it if it does happen to me? So that was where this conversation kind of started gaining traction. And I found three areas here that people wanna talk about.

Operational sovereignty, which is the ability to continue to operate all of your systems autonomously yourself. Now this is very important in things like the defense sector. You really don’t want your radar bought by a foreign government in your country to stop working. Then we have software sovereignty, and you’ve seen issues of this in the past.

You probably saw it, like me growing up where you’d lose access to licensing servers. And when you’re a tier one software would just stop working, then you didn’t have access to your stuff. And that’s software sovereignty. Kind of in a nutshell. I need to be able to authenticate, use my own software.

No one can take it away from me. And then finally, data sovereignty. This is more about the laws and the rules regulating that data, where it’s collected, where I’m storing it, what I have to do with it, and all of this for me falls under the banner of digital sovereignty. So those are the sort of, if you were descriptors of sovereignty, and it’s not a one size fits all, it’s this sliding scale of sovereignty.

So that’s what I’ve been finding.

Justin Parisi: Right, right. It’s interesting that they would force businesses to do this, ’cause I feel like as a customer, I’d be less likely to put my data on a business that’s US based. If that’s the case, right? I may choose someone else because I don’t want to be subject to this type of exposure.

And it is not necessarily like I’m keeping bad things. It’s my intellectual property. I don’t want to keep that in a place where somebody can get to it and then it becomes another discussion of, okay, well. Do I keep it in the cloud anymore? Do I move it back to on-prem? Do I keep it in a isolated, segmented data center?

So it starts to really add additional complexity and complications into your data storage?

Adam Gale: Absolutely. Absolutely. And those are the exact questions that people are asking themselves now, and we’re discussing a lot. It’s, first off, starting with that like, is my data important to begin with? Is it pictures of cats?

If it is, take it. I don’t really mind. You’ve probably got your own pictures of cats. We’ve all got pictures of cats. Take it. Don’t care. But if it’s really important ip, yes, maybe I don’t want it accessed by any government. Maybe I want it in a complete dark site. And here, as you probably know, at NetApp, we have literal dark sites. Yeah. Nuclear Submarines or power plants where our kit is in and there’s no outside contact. And I always find it absolutely brilliant that we can support these people. When I talk to our support teams, apparently we literally just pick up the phone. They pick up the phone, they call us and say, Hey, the so broken.

And then they have to describe the issue to us and they’ll say, oh, the command line saying this. And then we’ll say that something back to them. The kind of support I grew up with. You know, I’ve got gray in my beard now when I was in my teenage years, that’s how support used to work. And we’ve gone back to that for true dark sites.

Point being is that’s true digital sovereignty. No one can get access to that, but it’s incredibly inflexible. It’s only really reserved for defense sector or the super critical industries. It’s a sliding scale. Do you want that hybrid cloud that you just mentioned? Do I all of a sudden say, I don’t want to have it in this cloud actually because it’s US owned, or it’s owned by another country, it’s European union.

I wanna move it to this one, and I need data mobility for that. So yeah, it’s definitely a sliding scale.

Justin Parisi: Yeah, the support thing’s interesting. I used to work in support here at NetApp and we’d get some pretty interesting calls. We’d get calls from like race tracks and you could hear it in the background.

We’d get calls from tanks, right? People in tanks, like, Hey, my system’s down. And maybe they’re doing some training exercises, hear some explosions in the background. If you’re in a dark site like that, they gotta actually print out the logs and then redact a lot of the personal information or the IP addresses.

So that takes a while. So they fax it over to you and it’s like, oh great. I gotta parse through all this hard paper copies of all these things. So it does get very interesting when we start talking about having to secure our data to the extreme.

Adam Gale: Yes, but honestly, actually, this is kind of the fun I think of working for a company like NetApp.

We get to touch on so many different aspects of businesses, so many different areas, and like you just described there, hearing shells exploding in the background. How many people get to hear that on a daily basis or anything like that. It’s fantastic. I love where NetApp takes you.

You get to play in all these different spaces and have all these different conversations. I had something similar. I was working with GCHQ in the uk and we had to have the in separate rooms while we communicated, even though we were, I was giving a guy support in one room. I was in the other room.

He kept coming back into my room and then going back into that room, and I was like, try this, try that. And anyway, I couldn’t fix it. Because unlike you, I was absolutely terrible at support. And I’m really glad I got out of it because I probably broke more things than I fixed.

Justin Parisi: Honestly, it’s hard to try to troubleshoot something like that. When you’re dealing with logs that you can’t interact with, you can’t search through ’em. You can’t touch the system itself. You can’t run commands. You have to talk through people through the commands. That’s hard. It takes a lot of memorization of things and then you gotta really think about what’s going on.

It just becomes very esoteric and it’s almost impossible at times to troubleshoot an issue like that. So data sovereignty really adds a layer of complexity when you’re talking about data protection. It’s a hard problem to solve. So I know that we have at NetApp some things that we could probably do to help alleviate some of that, and I know that’s your area of expertise.

So what are you telling customers that are asking these hard questions?

Adam Gale: So I think first of all, it’s assessing their needs as you just already pointed out, do you need that kind of dark site or do you need something a bit more flexible? And then using some of the things we already have on the truck or in the tool bag, to answer this question. And I would say that NetApp, and this isn’t just ’cause I work here is probably one of the best data organization’s positioned to answer these questions of sovereignty because of our unique position in the market. So one of the first things I always say is, let’s encrypt the data.

Obviously using quantum proof encryption standards. ’cause Q-day is coming and even if data is taken by anybody and kept at some point somewhat able to decrypt that, so use quantum proof encryption and then use the key management, have the keys stored in a separate location, only accessible by you, or maybe even a third party.

I know there’s some of those popping up. I believe that Swiss are looking at it too. They’re gonna be a neutral party for key ownership.

Justin Parisi: So there’s gonna be Swiss bank accounts for our keys now.

Adam Gale: Yeah, there is. They’re obviously diversifying, they’re seeing new.

Justin Parisi: That’s good. It’s smart. Yeah.

Are they blockchain keys?

Adam Gale: I, I, that’s a good question. I don’t know. But this sorry, where I was now…

Justin Parisi: sorry. I’ve derailed you. Continue talking about Swiss and having data sovereignty and there’s places for your keys. Yep.

Adam Gale: So my question or my argument is, and this isn’t just my argument actually.

You see some of the larger organizations, the big cloud providers, the Amazon’s, the Google’s also positioning this. If it’s encrypted and you have the keys, have you lost anything? So if the US Cloud Act is activated and they come in and take some data, it’s encrypted. They can’t decrypt it.

So have you actually lost any sovereignty? In my opinion, no. You have not. Because they can’t read that data. They then have to go to the individual with the key. That individual could be belonging to a different country, located in a different country where there is no jurisdiction or no power. So that would be my first and foremost. Go in with that.

But I would say NetApp’s uniquely positioned to this because obviously of our encryption standards and because of our key management software, which is pretty good. Allowing ability to use their key software as well. So I would always, always look at that. And it’s amazing how many people I speak to who are multinational organizations who are not encrypting their production data.

And I always like, well, was a gas? I’m like, please just do that. It’s very easy to do. So that’d be the first thing. And some of the other things are things like basic security, because sovereignty can be lost, not just by a government. It could be lost by a bad actor coming in and stealing something, and they could be at the transit layer.

It’s much more difficult to protect in that sense. If it’s at rest you can go grab it and take it, but it’s in transit, might be in flight decrypted. You then have to use the autonomous ransomware protection tools and all the rest of them to stop it being taken. So security is your number one thing here, I would say.

And then underneath that second thing is looking at the hybrid model. So do I want a hybrid cloud message? Do I want to be able to move my data out of different countries or store bits of data in one country, in another, in another? Because there is some very complex laws out there these days and regulations around data security and what you are collecting off people. The old one, GDPR is probably one of the most famous. So those are the two main things I end up going in.

Justin Parisi: Yeah, I know that there’s also ways to protect documents and with classifications or with encryptions themselves. Where you can’t actually copy them outta your organization. So if somebody were to do some sort of engineering of personalities, right?

Like say, I’m your friend, please send me this document. And then the employee on the other end, unbeknownst to them is not realizing they’re not, their friend tries to send it to ’em, that it gets blocked. ’cause it’s like, oh, well this is classified a certain way. You don’t have access to change that.

Really, you’re protecting people from themselves at that point. So, that’s an additional place you can address security concerns. Now, NetApp doesn’t necessarily have that built in, but like Microsoft has that, I know that with their office suite or whatever. Protecting your employees from themselves, essentially.

Adam Gale: Absolutely. Yeah. I’ve seen those softwares as well. And I love the ones where they’ll almost mission impossible self-destruct too. You’ve got 10 minutes to read this document, and I feel very much under pressure that I’ve gotta read that document in 10 minutes before it self-destruct.

Justin Parisi: I just start using that and make people read my stuff.

Adam Gale: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You should start doing that. But don’t do it to me though, because I panic and then I won’t read it. Ah. Yeah. Another one that seems to pop up quite a bit as well is people are very curious to know what we have access to because these are our systems and they say, well, you are collecting support metrics off my box.

And we are, we are. Because if you don’t enable some of the support mechanisms, we see a 60% increase in tickets open by those customers. We’ve done the metrics, we know what it looks like, and then they’re very curious like, what are you collecting? And I’ve delved into this with the support teams, and we’re very open about this, very open, you can go through the logs and anonymizing yourself.

You can take out bits you don’t want to. So we’re very open in that, in that, in that sense. You have to be when you’re working with large organizations and defense contractors and stuff. But the second question that leads to is, do you have access to my underlying storage? And the answer to that is unequivocally no, we do not.

NetApp does not have any access to the underlying storage unless it’s granted to us. And I was talking to some support and they said that this is a double-edged sword because sometimes customers lose access to their own storage, and then they come to us and say, can you get it please?

And we’re like, no, we can’t. And they’re quite shocked and are angry to learn that we don’t have a back door. And we’re like, well, why would we, that would destroy trust in us. And then the sales guy comes along and says, would you like to buy a new storage system because they got access to theirs. So that is one that I always like to bring up because I think it’s super important.

’cause if we were ever to do those things, I think Alltrust would be lost. And this is a business of trust. So I think it’s very important.

And when you say grant access, that means letting us into your VPN and giving us keys that’ll allow us to log in. It’s not just like clicking an option within ONTAP.

Like it’s a very thorough process as if you’re onboarding us as an employee essentially. And with that, you should probably have us sign things, right? Yes. Yeah.

Adam Gale: And the support logs, apparently they are stripped at source as well for PPI Personal identify information.

Justin Parisi: Yeah, you can’t see volume names, you can’t see domain names. You can strip out a lot of different things with that option.

Adam Gale: That’s really, really good. I mean, obviously that never protects against someone who is just making silly mistakes, like naming things or doing things silly. And that always gets into the debate of what is personal identify information, but the fact that it’s stripped out at source and readable by the customer is also very important, I would say.

But the data does go back to us data centers, goes back to the mothership. Being that it is only metrics on speeds and feeds, et cetera, that doesn’t really concern anyone, I would say, but it does go back to them. And the hierarchy of access, apparently is very well documented.

You have to label everything. It has to be logged so we know who’s looked at what. It’s not just an access for all, free for all.

Justin Parisi: That also introduces the idea of auditing, right? Like audit logs, being able to audit who accesses the system, having security logs where you can audit permissions.

So you can see who has tried to delete something, who has tried to access something. So there’s a lot of different ways to address a security concern within a data center. Maybe that doesn’t necessarily address data sovereignty, but it does give you visibility into what’s going on in your environment.

Speaker 3: Yes, definitely. I think logs are interesting ’cause they’re always the one ones that are attacked first. Like they try and delete the logs so the attacker can’t be identified on which way they came in and how they did it. So they want the logs, they wanna delete the backups, so then you’ve got nothing to restore to.

So they’re definitely one of the attack vectors. I would say. One of the other areas that I find quite interesting is the certifications that NetApp has and when you look around the industry we have some of the most certifications, in fact we have the most, I would say actually when you compare is to the other players in the market.

NetApp is very particular about this and most of ’em obviously are security focused, and from my understanding we’re looking at some European big ones too, which hopefully we should have some news about those in the next like year or so. But they’re very difficult to get and this goes a good way to proving our security, and by then extension, our sovereignty. Some of the biggest defense contractors on the planet trust us and some of the biggest governments do. So they definitely work.

Justin Parisi: Certifications generally are just kinda like trophies on your case, but when somebody sees those trophies, they’re like, oh.

You’re not just telling me this because you believe it, other people believe it as well. You had to go through the hoops and the rigorous things to try to get those certifications. So you’ve shown that you truly are doing what you say you’re doing. And that’s really where a certification adds value.

Speaker 3: Yes, definitely. So that’s always a good talking point when we’re discussing with customers. And when people are asking me, what does NetApp do about this? So yeah, those are kind of the main areas, but going back to the geopolitical stance on it, because this isn’t just, I framed it as an American Cloud Act issue, but actually every country is interested in this. Every country has something sort of similar. We all copy each other’s regulation, copy each other’s ideas. And there was an interesting scenario that happened here in in Dubai. We had some underwater cables disconnected or cut under the Red Sea, and there’s some of the main links out.

And there was a bit of a worry that we would lose some of our data services, particularly for things like healthcare dubai the UAE and the KSA that’s Kingdom of Saudi Arabia are very particular about sovereignty. Not just data, digital and services. So there’s actually been very little disruption here.

It’s quite impressive to see they’ve taken it, not just on the data, they’re taking right to the top. And I’m quite proud to see it. It’s great. No one’s lost access to anything. There’s been no interruptions and it’s been brilliant. So this is not just a small, isolated country thing.

It is important to all countries, I would say.

Justin Parisi: Yeah, it’s always interesting when you hear about the cables being cut at the bottom of the sea and then everyone says it’s an accident. That’s a really tough accident to happen. Yeah, because that’s pretty far down. Maybe a fish got ahold of it or something started nibbling.

I don’t know.

Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe for the older ones that remember jaws, maybe Jaws was sniffing around, but that’s right.

Justin Parisi: Jaws hates data.

Adam Gale: There was one in the UK as well where, where Heathrow had a sub power station explode. And I swear everyone was scratching their head for weeks saying they don’t just explode.

Someone did it. It was, you know, an attack of some sort. But it turns out it did just explode because of poor maintenance. So sometimes accidents do just happen, I guess.

Justin Parisi: Yeah, those types of accidents, but cables don’t just spontaneously cut.

Adam Gale: So, no in my opinion, I assume they were definitely cut.

Justin Parisi: Yeah.

Adam Gale: Obviously no idea who and the best thing we can do is when we worry about these things, I think is create sovereign platforms within our environment. So we’ve always got access to the things we need. Now, the most important thing here was, did I still have access to Netflix? Yes, I did. Because there’s a local copy, obviously on the local servers.

Netflix didn’t skip a beat, so my daughter was happy and I was happy.

That’s good. That’s good. Got to watch your bluey and all that good stuff.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.

So there’s another feature within ONTAP that kind of fits into this as well. And that’s snap lock, right? So the ability to lock data in place, prevent it from being deleted by anyone other than the admin, or prevent it from being deleted by anybody until a clock runs out.

That ties into the whole protecting your logs. Where does it tie into data sovereignty? Does it help there at all?

Adam Gale: Yes, it is actually, it is obviously for that exact reason because if someone wanted to exfil your data, they could potentially decide to delete it afterwards as well as a show of force or anything along those lines.

And just changing it, being able to change it full stop, that is something that you obviously want to protect against. So these are basic things that I would say anyone worried about security or sovereignty should be doing, particularly to their most critical data. So there is definitely something to be said about that.

Justin Parisi: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And the other part of it’s is having a replica, right? Having a copy of that data elsewhere so that you have disaster recovery in addition to sovereignty, because now if that other side goes down, let’s say a cable gets cut. Right now, you have access to that local copy in the snap lock because you’ve protected yourself by adding an additional copy to the mix.

Adam Gale: So I think that would be for me like operational resilience and having the ability to absorb these threats or absorb these bad actions. Yes, and again, this sort of fits I think quite nicely into some sort of digital resilience or digital sovereignty. They all do sort of crossover a little bit and as you probably imagine, AI plays a part in that as well.

Justin Parisi: Yeah, absolutely.

Adam Gale: Countries are looking at artificial intelligence, sovereignty. Each country’s competing. They’re all saying, well, I want the data centers on site. I want them in my country. I think there’s been an announcement by Google for maybe 10 or 20 billion in the UK and they’ll be building out artificial intelligence data centers and things like that because people want sovereign AI built on their data. That they can access. So AI does play a part of this as well.

Justin Parisi: Yeah, it’s a new arms race, essentially the AI race.

Adam Gale: And you can see this in some of the regulation that gets written.

I know probably anyone listening to this is like, great Adam’s gonna talk about regulation again. ’cause I know he is one of the areas that I always end up straying into. But we have very specific regulation around the globe. Not just the European Union about this operational resilience, which you just touched on.

And sovereignty. Sovereignty stuff is kind of coming for the European Union, but as I mentioned earlier, the UAE and the KSA have quite strict requirements around digital sovereignty. Yeah. So every country’s looking at this.

Justin Parisi: Yeah. As they should really. I mean, it’s maybe they should definitely zero trust model.

Adam Gale: Yes. Zero trust ’cause, I think it just works a little bit that way. And also, this is sounds probably going off topic, but I want those skills in-house. I miss it when we had skills in-house. I want to be able to pick up the phone and call someone locally and say, can you help me with this? And they can come and help you. If it’s all somewhere else it’s a little bit more too distance for me. And that feeds into a little bit. One of the last things I wanted to talk about sovereignty is that NetApp is a global organization. But it has residents and people in each country localized. Now, that probably doesn’t sound like a big deal, but it really is because what that means is, and you saw this in Brazil when they had a spat with Twitter, was that you can reach out, the local government can reach out and threaten to arrest somebody.

So they could reach out and threaten to arrest me and say, Adam NetApp done something. You’re the local representative. We’re gonna come and we’re gonna have have a conversation with you. So when we talk about this geopolitical push and pull and, and those robots fighting each other it’s important to have a local presence ’cause someone can reach out and touch you and go, I need your help. Or Can you explain to me why you are doing this? Why you want my data, why you’re looking at these things. And NetApp advocates for balanced policies and for balanced use of technologies. We want to be able to give everyone access to all the top level technologies, our technologies, while advocating for balanced policies.

Justin Parisi: Yeah, makes sense. It was a little scary that you could be arrested for something NetApp does or something I did like if I say something on this podcast. And then, oh yeah. I think generally it’s like my Dubai joke by buying,

Adam Gale: please don’t make any jokes about the buy. But I, it’s generally reserved for the legal representatives, so don’t worry.

That’s good it’s not, it’s not the, it’s not the, the minions like me and you, it’s legal people that.

Justin Parisi: Don’t want get in any trouble for any of that. So that’s good.

Adam Gale: This is something that is a growing story.

It’s constantly evolving and it really is gaining a lot of traction. We have SAP investing 20 billion in building their own sovereign cloud infrastructure. We have new laws and regulations being written in the European Union. We really are changing. So if anyone has a conversation about this or wants to talk to me, feel free to reach out to me.

You can always get me on LinkedIn. My picture is there, hard to miss this face. And reach out to me at [email protected] and would love to have someone’s thoughts on this.

Justin Parisi: Alright. Excellent. Well, thank you so much for joining us, Adam, and talking to us all about data sovereignty and security and regulations that you love.

Adam Gale: Thank you. It was always a pleasure. Thank you for having me.