{"id":83771,"date":"2025-02-12T10:57:50","date_gmt":"2025-02-12T10:57:50","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/peraltafinancing.com\/business\/marketing\/indigenous-storytelling-in-marketing-and-advertising\/"},"modified":"2025-02-12T10:57:50","modified_gmt":"2025-02-12T10:57:50","slug":"indigenous-storytelling-in-marketing-and-advertising","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?p=83771","title":{"rendered":"Indigenous Storytelling In Marketing And Advertising"},"content":{"rendered":"<p> <br \/>\n<\/p>\n<div itemprop=\"text\">\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/peterkirk1\/\" class=\"external\" target=\"_blank\">Peter Kirk<\/a> is a multi-award-winning Indigenous TVC and film director, creator and connector at <a href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/company\/campfire-x\/\" class=\"external\" target=\"_blank\">Campfire x.<\/a> Campfire x is an Indigenous-owned and run creative consultancy agency that brings Indigenous thinking and talent into the mainstream by unifying the 97% of Australians who are not Indigenous with the 3% who are. <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They develop creative strategies that communicate to all of Australia and de-risk how companies and brands engage with the world\u2019s oldest storytellers, enriching the nation\u2019s view of itself.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>Peter shares the benefits and challenges of working with Indigenous creators and storytellers and the fundamental changes we need to make as an industry, brand leaders and individuals to access this benefit directly and maximise the performance of genuine and authentic storytelling.<\/p>\n<p>You can listen to the podcast here:<\/p>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https:\/\/www.trinityp3.com\/podcasts\/indigenous-storytelling-in-marketing-and-advertising\/about:blank\" width=\"100%\" height=\"166\" frameborder=\"no\" scrolling=\"no\" data-rocket-lazyload=\"fitvidscompatible\" data-lazy-src=\"https:\/\/w.soundcloud.com\/player\/?url=https%3A\/\/api.soundcloud.com\/tracks\/2020144269&amp;color=%23ff5500&amp;auto_play=false&amp;hide_related=false&amp;show_comments=true&amp;show_user=true&amp;show_reposts=false&amp;show_teaser=true\"><\/iframe><noscript><iframe loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https:\/\/w.soundcloud.com\/player\/?url=https%3A\/\/api.soundcloud.com\/tracks\/2020144269&amp;color=%23ff5500&amp;auto_play=false&amp;hide_related=false&amp;show_comments=true&amp;show_user=true&amp;show_reposts=false&amp;show_teaser=true\" width=\"100%\" height=\"166\" frameborder=\"no\" scrolling=\"no\"><\/iframe><\/noscript><\/p>\n<p>Follow Managing Marketing on\u00a0<a class=\"external\" href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/managing-marketing\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\">Soundcloud<\/a>,\u00a0<a class=\"external\" href=\"https:\/\/managingmarketing.podbean.com\/\" rel=\"noopener\" target=\"_blank\">Podbean,<\/a>\u00a0<a class=\"external\" href=\"https:\/\/tunein.com\/podcasts\/Business--Economics-Podcasts\/Managing-Marketing-p1275737\/\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\">TuneIn<\/a>,\u00a0<a class=\"external\" href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/75mJ4Gt6MWzFWvmd3A64XW\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\">Stitcher,<\/a>\u00a0<a class=\"external\" href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/75mJ4Gt6MWzFWvmd3A64XW\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\">Spotify,<\/a>\u00a0<a class=\"external\" href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/au\/podcast\/managing-marketing\/id1018735190\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\">Apple Podcast<\/a>\u00a0and\u00a0<a class=\"external\" href=\"https:\/\/music.amazon.com\/podcasts\/5e7b205c-81c9-44e0-aa1d-d2ce504c6048%E2%80%8B\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\">Amazon Podcasts.<\/a><\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<h3 style=\"text-align: center;\">CEOs and the boards don\u2019t care about any of those things either.<br \/>They don\u2019t care about how creative or how well it was shot or what awards it won.<br \/>They care about\u2026<\/h3>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n<h3>Transcription:<\/h3>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Hi, I\u2019m Darren Woolley, founder and CEO of TrinityP3 Marketing Management consultancy. And welcome to Managing Marketing, a weekly podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media, and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners.<\/p>\n<p>If you enjoy the Managing Marketing Podcast, please either like, review, or share this episode to help spread the word and wisdom of our guests each week.<\/p>\n<p>Now, Campfire x is an indigenous owned and run creative consultancy that brings indigenous thinking and talent into the mainstream, by unifying the 97% of Australians who are not indigenous with the 3% who are.<\/p>\n<p>They develop creative strategies that communicate to all Australia and de-risk how companies and brands engage with the world\u2019s oldest storytellers, enriching the nation\u2019s view of itself. Please welcome to the Managing Marketing Podcast, a multi-award-winning indigenous TV and film director, creator and connector at Campfire x, Peter Kirk. Good day, Kirky.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>How are you, Darren? You\u2019re well? I feel very honored and humbled because you\u2019ve had a lot of heavy hitters on this podcast. So, I\u2019m in the company of them, so it\u2019s very special to be in their company.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Okay. So, let\u2019s start this conversation because the reason I wanted to sit down with you and have a yarn is because Australia is really struggling, I believe, with an identity crisis, that we\u2019re somewhere torn and we are increasingly polarized.<\/p>\n<p>And it\u2019s not just Australia, we\u2019re seeing this in a lot of Western cultures becoming increasingly polarized. Last year\u2019s vote on the votes to parliament, the referendum deepened that in many ways. And I\u2019d be really interested in how you think it\u2019s changed the sort of \u2026 is it polarizing Australia more or is it actually just one further step?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Really, really good question. So, there\u2019s a couple of things there I think we need to talk about. To get anywhere challenging, you have to go through a challenge. So, to get an outcome that\u2019s a long-lasting outcome means you often have to go through a bit of work and have some uncomfortable conversations and put some agendas on the table that people don\u2019t necessarily want to put on the table.<\/p>\n<p>That means a lot of anxiety, a lot of fear, a lot of negativity, a lot of noise, and a lot of stereotyping is going to be bandied around because to get from A to B, people have to let go of where they were to get where they want to be. And some people don\u2019t want to get to B. Which is-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s a vested interest.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s a vested interest, which is a bigger conversation. The question you\u2019re asking me with what happened last year, how has that shaped things? I think it\u2019s shaped things a lot, but I don\u2019t think it\u2019s shaped things for the reason that people think it has. And let me explain.<\/p>\n<p>However you look at it, last year\u2019s Voice was a disaster. I\u2019ve got a lot of friends who are First Nations. I\u2019ve got a lot of friends who are from various countries. I\u2019ve got a lot of friends who are White, Aussie middle-class, some of my dearest friends catch up and watch the footy with them and have a beer and have a yarn.<\/p>\n<p>It wasn\u2019t Australia\u2019s fault that Australia voted, voted no. Removing all the rhetoric, removing all the anger, removing all the hatred, removing all that. Essentially what boiled down to was we as a First Nations population, we as people, didn\u2019t do a good enough job to convince Australia of the benefits of voting yes.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s not Australia\u2019s fault. That\u2019s our fault. Now, I\u2019ve spoken out and I\u2019ve been on the record, and I\u2019ve gone out there and I\u2019ve said the campaigns for the Voice should never have been undertaken by white companies. Because I believe wholeheartedly in my heart of hearts that if the messaging, if the comms, if the strategy, if everything was done by First Nations agencies, and there\u2019s plenty out there, I believe we would\u2019ve had a different result.<\/p>\n<p>And I know back to jump in, and the data around Brigg\u2019s campaign, I\u2019ve just googled it, demonstrates that. So, yes, we are going through a transition as a country. That transition should have been easier if the messaging and the reasons for that transitioning when needed, and it wasn\u2019t done.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>And actually delivered. And look to pick up on your first point, Kirky, yes, anything worth doing is usually hard. If it was easy, it would\u2019ve just happened. So, if it\u2019s worth doing.<\/p>\n<p>Secondly, I think you\u2019re right. In many ways, what a vast majority, and I\u2019ve got a brother who\u2019s White, middle-class, Australian who voted no because he felt like it was somehow excluding him, rather than being framed of including.<\/p>\n<p>And I think that\u2019s part of this whole trend we\u2019re seeing globally, which is divide and conquer, split into the haves, the have nots, the woke and the non-woke or whatever. There seems to be this what do they call it, cultural war. And yet there\u2019s something fundamental. The most common used word you hear in marketing is authenticity or the other one is integrity.<\/p>\n<p>And yet, in many ways, we\u2019ve got something that has incredible integrity, which is our shared history as Australians. I grew up in an era when Australia didn\u2019t start until 1770, when Cook sailed down the east coast of Australia and landed a botany bay and claimed it for the king.<\/p>\n<p>And yet, it\u2019s now very clear, and I\u2019ve got children that are growing up in an era when they\u2019re getting told and educated that that actually happened \u2014 that Australia actually started 60,000 years earlier. So, there\u2019s a big change happening. It\u2019s just not pulling it together.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>I think it comes down to how you measure change. And I think it comes down to what is change in regards to the benefit of how that could benefit Australia. You mentioned that there\u2019s a bit of a cultural war going on at the moment before, and I agree, but I think it\u2019s more of a class war.<\/p>\n<p>I think we\u2019re actually experiencing first time I\u2019ve really ever seen a class war happen in Australia between rich\/poor, religion\/non-religion, societal\/socioeconomic, et cetera.<\/p>\n<p>No better example than two nights ago, two days ago, a woman was murdered in Belmore through domestic violence that hardly got any traction in the media. And the outrage that has happened in the past around domestic violence, it was minuscule. And I can\u2019t work that out. Every life is so precious, and every life is so valuable. Where\u2019s the outrage for a woman in a flat in Belmore?<\/p>\n<p>So, I think it comes down to how do we measure the change and how we measure outcomes. Everyone talks about equality of opportunity, equality of opportunity. And I get it, but we\u2019re not measuring, we\u2019re not putting KPIs or quality of outcomes, and we\u2019re not putting KPIs on outcomes of delivery and outcomes of inclusion.<\/p>\n<p>And I hate to say it because I love our industry, unfortunately, it doesn\u2019t love me back, but I love our industry. We\u2019re probably the worst when it comes to this, because why? There\u2019s a lot of status. There\u2019s a lot of egos, there\u2019s a lot of narcissism, and there\u2019s a lot of insecurity.<\/p>\n<p>So, yes, there is change. Completely agree. And people want change, and people want change, and people want to do the right thing. I honestly believe most Australians want to do the right thing in this space, absolutely, no doubt.<\/p>\n<p>However, they want to do it quickly, and they want a prescriptive outcome. One plus one is two. You mean if I do this, all of a sudden, we\u2019re going to connect to First Nations people and we\u2019re going to be cool, and we\u2019re going to be woke, and we\u2019re going to be fantastic. We\u2019re going to have a rep, and we\u2019re going to be all of a sudden working with First Nations people.<\/p>\n<p>It doesn\u2019t happen like that. It happens through yarning and uncomfortable conversations and being put in an environment that is uncomfortable and giving up some of the aspects of your life that have been created through aspects of your parents\u2019 life. And I think you can guess what I\u2019m trying to say.<\/p>\n<p>As opposed to saying, well, I\u2019m in a position of authority, so I\u2019m going to help someone who is in a less position of authority than me is not the right way to look at it. By saying, I want to work with another group of people because this is going to enhance my work and enhance my outcomes and make the environment better.<\/p>\n<p>And there are KPIs for this, and there\u2019s so much data around this, and there\u2019s so much ways of measuring this. I\u2019m surprised it hasn\u2019t really sunk in yet. Ruby little dog, she\u2019s fast asleep, she\u2019s fantastic.<\/p>\n<p>So, as an industry, we have to have a reckoning. That reckoning is not going to come from agencies. It\u2019s not going to come from media companies. It isn\u2019t going to come from ECDs. It isn\u2019t going to come from CEOs or MDs.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s going to come from brands. And yes, brands are leading the way. However, there still is a propensity to turn around and say, what is the quickest possible solution so we can demonstrate we actually care in this space, as opposed to what is the ROI, how much is it going to cost us? What do we need to do to actually start this journey?<\/p>\n<p>And then put some KPIs around this so we can demonstrate this is actually making money to us. It\u2019s a different mindset, but it\u2019s the right mindset.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Yeah. And as you say, we\u2019re starting to see some changes, but what are the upsides for brands? And I know there\u2019s a huge amount of fear in the business community, and again, reinforced with the referendum in that there were companies that came out making a stand particularly on the yes side that were then criticized for their position on it, Qantas, Bunnings or Westfarmers and a couple of others.<\/p>\n<p>So, a lot of brands are very cautious about this. And yet, there seems to be, from my perspective, a real upside. One is tapping into a culture that is established by thousands of years, tapping into a culture that is rich in a history of oral storytelling.<\/p>\n<p>What are the opportunities for brands, because what they don\u2019t want to get is into a political discussion around indigenous welfare. But how do they tap into the indigenous culture, the First Nations culture in a way that actually works for them as well?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s a really good question. Well, that comes down to leadership, that comes down. So, a couple of years ago, I was at a function somewhere. I was at one of the multiple industry conferences, and the CEO from LinkedIn got up, and she said this, she said, \u201cLook, everyone\u2019s talking about diversity and inclusion, and everyone\u2019s talking about different voices in the room. What everyone\u2019s not talking about is, it is hard because we work with people that are like us. We hire people that are like us.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s just human nature. I don\u2019t, but most people do hire someone that they can feel the most comfortable with. And generally, that means similar backgrounds, similar beliefs, similar norms, and similar mores.<\/p>\n<p>So, this person said, \u201cInclusion is hard, and diversity is hard because you\u2019re bringing people in that are challenging the team and the crew.\u201d And then she said, \u201cBut a good leader should manage that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So, this is where good leadership needs to step in from these brands, from the CMOs, from the CEOs, from the MDs, from the chairman, and say, \u201cWe are going in this direction. We are committing to this. We are putting money aside to this, and we are going to build out some KPIs that demonstrate the success in this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>As opposed to say, \u201cWell, we believe in this, however, it\u2019s all a bit too hard. What\u2019s the quickest win we can do to show we\u2019re going on this journey? What\u2019s little as much money we can throw at it to actually get something going and something that\u2019s got some good optics around it, et cetera.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Going back to the brands that came out to support the Voice, I agree with you. They took a lot of stick. However, let\u2019s just drill down with a couple of those brands. Qantas came out to support the Voice, whilst at the same time they were rotting their customers.<\/p>\n<p>They were selling tickets that they didn\u2019t even have. They were laying off staff, multiple, multiple numbers, which court cases now prove that they should have done. And that\u2019s opened \u2026 there was many things that Qantas were doing that weren\u2019t really for the benefit of everyone.<\/p>\n<p>So, I don\u2019t believe people were upset with Qantas for supporting the Voice. I believe people were upset with Qantas, with the hypocrisy. Again, leadership.<\/p>\n<p>Telstra came out and supported the Voice. Again, Telstra sold dodgy phone plans into First Nations communities multiple occasions and turned out to get fined by the regulator record numbers of fines for selling dodgy plans into remote communities.<\/p>\n<p>So, again, the hypocrisy of it. So, I personally don\u2019t think Australia was upset with these brands because they were supporting the Voice. I think they were upset with their brands because of their hypocrisy these brands were showing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>There was also elements of the politics of it as well. Because it became incredibly politicized. But it\u2019s interesting because at the very core of both of those examples is an undermining of credibility, their authenticity, what you say and what you do have to align.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s where the job of a good leader is. That\u2019s the job of a good CEO. If the next question is, are there good CEOs out there? Yes. Yeah, there are. But they\u2019re not many. And it\u2019s tough. It\u2019s tough because Australia is going through a change, and this is where the job of the CEO and one could argue Albanese is a CEO, has to manage this change?<\/p>\n<p>Is Alba doing a good job managing the change? Not at all. Is Dutton doing a good job managing the change? Not at all. Are Coles, Woolies, Telstra doing a good job of managing that change? And they use the blanket of fear as an excuse.<\/p>\n<p>We want to commit to this, but we don\u2019t want to be seen doing the wrong thing, or we don\u2019t want to come across as tokenistic, or we don\u2019t want to be seen jumping on a bandwagon. They\u2019re all excuses for the lack of leadership from these brands. And there are some good leaders out there.<\/p>\n<p>Unfortunately, we lost one of the best one couple weeks ago, as we all know, she was one of the most amazing leaders. But they use as an excuse not to commit, because again, the KPIs for our big businesses don\u2019t have measuring tools in this system.<\/p>\n<p>Measure DEI, measure inclusion, measure acceptance, measure changing the thought process, measure changing the norms and the mores and the outcomes. That\u2019s where a good leader\u2019s got to jump in and say, \u201cWe are going to create some measuring tools around this that demonstrate that this thing works.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Because it\u2019s interesting, and in the introduction, and this is straight from Campfire x\u2019s website, we\u2019re talking about First Nation people representing, I think the ABS said it\u2019s 3.8% at the 2021. So, if you round up it\u2019s 4%.<\/p>\n<p>And then there\u2019s 96% of Australians that are not First Nations. Except that of that 96%, around 48% of them are not Australian born or don\u2019t have parents that are Australian born. So, we\u2019re already quite a mixed population.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>But here\u2019s the flaw in that theory, that 50% of migrants are very, very poorly represented in corporate Australia.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Of course.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>So, again, drill down, what nationality are the CEOs, what nationality are the MDs, what nationality are the leaders? Where are they from? What schools did they go to? Where did they grow up? What post codes are they living in?<\/p>\n<p>There was an amazing stat that came out from PricewaterhouseCoopers in 2019, I believe, I could be wrong. 92% of everyone that works in the advertising and media industry live in five post codes in Sydney.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s true.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>And I think it\u2019s three in Melbourne. And so, we live under this illusion that we\u2019re a multicultural country. We\u2019re not, we\u2019re multinational. And it\u2019s a big difference. It\u2019s a massive difference. We are not multicultural. Let me finish.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Explain that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>How many mosques are there in the eastern suburbs?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>I don\u2019t know of any.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>No, that\u2019s my point. I\u2019m not pointing out the people from the eastern suburbs. What\u2019s the difference in socioeconomic income between the eastern suburbs and Blacktown or Rooty Hill?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Yeah, huge.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Huge, massive. Where do-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Well, you can\u2019t buy a house in the eastern suburbs for under 10 million. Whereas you could probably buy a whole block.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>So, where does that mean most of the migrants end up, most of new Australians end up?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>In the West.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>The level of crime\u2019s far bigger out there. Why? Because higher unemployment rate, lack of English, lack of opportunities, lack of pathways, a cultural gap between Australia and what Australia is and my beliefs and all that comes into play.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Peter, for the vast majority of brands, that\u2019s actually their customers. The eastern suburbs as a percentage of the total population is a very small amount.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ve seen some passion from you, Darren. It\u2019s fantastic.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Yeah. People talk about the top 1% of income earners. But that is a very small part of the market. The vast majority of revenue for Telstra, Woolworths, Coles, all of these businesses, actually comes from the majority of the people-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>You are a hundred percent right. But again, let\u2019s drill down. What\u2019s the background of most of the people that work in marketing in those brands? What\u2019s school did they go to? What\u2019s their education levels? Where do they live?<\/p>\n<p>Just because people are buying their brands out in western Sydney doesn\u2019t mean the people that are making the decisions to sell those brands to the people out in western Sydney, come from western Sydney.<\/p>\n<p>No better example will you meet that are show in the ABC called <em>The Gruen Transfer<\/em>. You\u2019ve got a bunch of advertising people coming on, critiquing other advertising people\u2019s work. And in the history of The Gruen Transfer, I don\u2019t believe we\u2019ve ever had a First Nations person come on that show, believe me because I\u2019ve been pushing hard for it.<\/p>\n<p>They\u2019ve now blocked me, by the way, on Facebook. Fantastic. Great. We\u2019re so diverse. The point I\u2019m trying to make is, if we have true diversity and the decision makers have true diversity, then those decision makers are going to be opening up their doors to people out there and say, \u201cWe want your opinion. We want you to come in and share your thoughts with us.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>As opposed to, I\u2019m going to tell a single mother of four people from Lebanon on why they should buy my product. Even though I\u2019m from Vaucluse, or Pyrmont or North Sydney, or Crows Nest or Waverton.<\/p>\n<p>The disconnect is laughable. Recently we took a client of ours way out to Rooty Hill for a cultural immersion day and a strategy day. And we started the day with a First Nations woman that came in and said, \u201cI\u2019m going to teach you guys how to do weaving.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And we sat around for the first two hours of that session, and we were learning how to weave, and as we were weaving, we were yarning. And the client came back the next day and said that\u2019s one of the best starts we\u2019ve ever had to a strategy day. Because it was a different way of thinking. It was a different way of doing things. It was a different culture that was brought into to white Australia.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s disruptive. It disrupts people from the way they usually think because one of the big problems with what you described earlier about people only wanting to work with people like themselves is that that encourages group think.<\/p>\n<p>That the same values, the same ideas, the same thoughts just get \u2026 some people call it the bubble or shouting into the vacuum, is that you just hear the same thing over and again, and your beliefs are reinforced back to you that you\u2019re right, because of that social media is a prime example of that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>No better example will you get than Talkback Radio.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m outraged Ben Fordham, I\u2019m outraged that you are outraged. Well, let\u2019s be outraged together.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>So, Campfire x, first of all, I love the name.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Because it immediately conjures for me, the campfire that I grew up with in the country of sitting around and people talking sharing stories. I remember one campfire up in the in the Highlands where someone pulled out a guitar and suddenly there was a sing along. It\u2019s amazing how campfires have that ability to make everyone equal.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Because we all sit around the campfire. It\u2019s circular. There\u2019s no levels of hierarchy or status. It\u2019s everyone\u2019s equal because they\u2019re all sitting around the campfire.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Is that the motivation of calling it Campfire x and what\u2019s x? The unknown factor?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Campfire plus X, Google Campfire x, Facebook Meta, Campfire x, whomever works with us, or we work with. The motivation is to hopefully showcase to corporate Australia that there is a different way of doing things.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s the motivation. That if you do things differently, you\u2019ll get a different outcome, which probably will be a better outcome. And you\u2019re right, the comment you made that before that or you might have said it offline, that Australia\u2019s going through a change, and there\u2019s no doubt there\u2019s interest in this.<\/p>\n<p>A hundred percent. You\u2019re a hundred percent. But the brands aren\u2019t doing that. The brands are, if the desire is from everyday Australians to lean in more to First Nations, which I believe there is. And you believe there is, and most people I talk to is there\u2019s been a shift and absolutely.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Well, I think there\u2019s a dissatisfaction with the status quo. I think people are feeling like most of the institutions we grew up with, that our parents told us to follow have fallen by the wayside. That we have this huge cynicism, whether it\u2019s the political structures, the two-party political structure we\u2019ve seen the growth of the Independent.<\/p>\n<p>Whether it\u2019s the organized religions, whether it\u2019s the medical fraternity, there\u2019s so many things that there\u2019s all these question marks over that people are looking for something. And that\u2019s why authentic is so important. And, and integrity is so important.<\/p>\n<p>People want to believe in something. And often they\u2019re led into a path of believing in something that when they question it or dig a bit deeper, they find it\u2019s just like everything else that lacks integrity. That there is something alluring about the oldest continuous culture in the world.<\/p>\n<p>And I\u2019ve got a wife who\u2019s Chinese and the Chinese talk about their 5,000 years of history. We are sitting here with a culture in Australia that extends back-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>8,000 years. Yeah. You\u2019re a hundred percent right. There\u2019s one-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s something there.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s one big caveat to what you\u2019re saying though. Unfortunately, we are living in a society and an industry where the people who are deciding what is authentic live in a bubble and grew up in a bubble. So, let me give you an example. A couple years ago, you\u2019re looking at your watch. It\u2019s a good-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Yeah, something \u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>A couple years ago I got a call from an agency, I\u2019m not going to mention their name, and they were doing a campaign for \u2026 if I say it, I\u2019ll make \u2014 they were doing a campaign for a well-known First Nations landmark, and they wanted to hire First Nations crew. Great.<\/p>\n<p>The ECD said to me, \u201cIf you could send me through five or six show rules of who you think\u2019s a good First Nation cinematographer, and I\u2019ll pick the best one.\u201d There are so many problems with that sentence.<\/p>\n<p>So, we\u2019ve got, this guy was Pommy. We\u2019ve got a white Pommy guy from London deciding who\u2019s authentic and who\u2019s real in the First Nation space. So, they can be considered good enough to be hired by a white agency to work on a First Nations campaign.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>By what standard? Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>By what standard? And I said, \u201cMate, I\u2019m not going to, why would I waste my time?\u201d Because your perception of what is real and authentic is completely different than my perception of what is real and authentic.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019re going to work with First Nations, then how about I arrange for you to have a cup of coffee with five of them, and you sit down and have a yarn. He said, \u201cMate, I don\u2019t have time. So, forget it.\u201d And they ended up hiring-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Not really committed to the idea anyway.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>No, not committed. So, their perception of authenticity, and I lost friends over this. I\u2019ve lost friends, some of my best friends were ECDs and they were voting yes for the Voice. And I was questioning them why? And that blew up. And we\u2019ll never talk again. And that\u2019s okay. That doesn\u2019t bother me at all.<\/p>\n<p>You are right. People want authenticity, and they want real, and they want genuine. However, the people that are deciding what\u2019s real and what\u2019s genuine don\u2019t come from a completely diverse background.<\/p>\n<p>Even though they\u2019ll tell you, they will. Most of the ECDs in the advertising industry are male. Most are private school educated. Most grow up in high socioeconomic environments. I\u2019m not saying all I\u2019m saying most.<\/p>\n<p>And most have come through the system where they started in ad agency in the age of 18, 19, and lived in this environment and came all the way through this environment. And I\u2019m not devaluing their client, I\u2019m not devaluing their success. I\u2019m devaluing that. The fact that they\u2019re turning around and saying that their authentic.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Yeah. Their approach doesn\u2019t accommodate doing something in a different way. They\u2019re bringing their learnt structures, judgment structures. And that\u2019s the interesting part because one of the things you say, Campfire x is about connecting people, connecting people to First Nations talent, connecting people to First Nations storytelling, connecting people to mobs, to really be able to get those localized.<\/p>\n<p>Because that\u2019s one of the things that blew me away is the people talk about First Nations, but we\u2019re actually talking about hundreds of different nations around it wasn\u2019t Australia. There was literally \u2014 we\u2019re on Wonga land. But that\u2019s in your nation.<\/p>\n<p>But it does require you to actually rethink or at least be open to a new way of engaging and talking. Because just bringing your white fella thinking to that environment is actually colonialism, intellectual colonialism.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>It is intellectual repression and intellectual colonialism. So, let me you one of the things that we preach at Campfire x, and it\u2019s one of the things that I think could benefit Australia in the whole. Most people, when we start having a yarn with them, they start with the conversation of saying, well, how can I help? How can I help First Nations people? What am I got to do? We\u2019ll just leave that, leave all that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>I mean, just in that you can hear the patronizing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Let\u2019s just leave that out hanging out there for a minute.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>How can we help you fella?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>How can we help you? Right. I don\u2019t want your help. But anyway, that\u2019s a really wrong way of looking at it because most of Australia come at the theory and come at the belief that we are there to help the 3%. They\u2019re not.<\/p>\n<p>If you change it and change a sentence and change the way of thinking to saying, \u201cHang on a second, as a brand, as a CMO, as a leader, how can I educate my customers in First Nations ways of thinking and knowledge?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So, it\u2019s not about helping the 3%, it\u2019s about educating the 97%. And once you change that brain shift, you\u2019re going to start to think, \u201cWell, hang on a second. The opportunities are endless.\u201d We can start doing campaigns that involve indigenous design, indigenous thinking.<\/p>\n<p>We can start doing campaigns where we\u2019re going to yarn with an old leader from up north. And he could talk about the rivers and the streams and how they used to fish and how that can come into sustainability. You know?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>You\u2019re right. And I think that\u2019s very much that colonial education, which said, we\u2019ve got to somehow, as the privileged white people reach out and help the poor black person, the downtrodden. Rather than here is a culture that has thrived and survived 80,000 years that is an asset and inextricably linked to being Australia that you can tap into.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>A Hundred percent. And that goes back to my comment before of a good leader\u2019s got to build out the KPIs to measure this. Because unfortunately, corporate world is about KPIs and it\u2019s about profit and loss, and that\u2019s okay. We\u2019re not all living in some dream world of pixies and rainbows. I get that.<\/p>\n<p>But you build out the KPIs and there\u2019s a accounting theory called triple bottom line, where you can look at the benefit of this and put some dollar figures against it. It\u2019s really not that hard. You\u2019re talking to a guy that was in bottom maths of class, and I am bottom maths, games and puzzles, maths at school.<\/p>\n<p>And even I can get the concept of triple bottom line and how you can put some numbers against it and some numbers against the outcomes and ways of measuring the success of leaning in and bringing in First Nations and other ways of thinking into the development of a campaign, the development of an execution, the development of strategy, and have different hands in the creation of this campaign.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m going to tell the advertising industry a little secret here. Bazza and Shazza from Mount Penrith don\u2019t care how creative your wonderful, your piece of work is. They could not care less about how many awards you\u2019ve won. They couldn\u2019t care less about if this is the best ad, the most best shot ad with the best DP and the best director and an award-winning director, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They don\u2019t care.<\/p>\n<p>All they care about is getting their kids to school on time, paying the bills, being healthy, loving the family, all that. Everything that goes to living every single day. That\u2019s what they care about.<\/p>\n<p>So, again, the agency lands needs to redefine their KPIs and stop looking at awards and stop looking at status and look at inclusion as a way of measuring success. That\u2019s what Campfire x does.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Because there\u2019s a flip side to what you just said, which is the CEOs and the boards don\u2019t care about any of those things either. They don\u2019t care about how creative or how well it was shot or what awards it won. They care about getting their customers, what did you call them?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Bazza and Shazza.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Bazza and Shazza.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s going to be a marketing principle I\u2019ll teach at university one day, Bazza and Shazza.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Bazza and Shazza buy more of the product more often at a higher premium price because they feel that that represents value to them.<\/p>\n<p>So, there\u2019s really a disconnect. Because earlier on Kirky, you said it\u2019s not going to be changed by the agencies. It\u2019s going to be changed by the marketers. And the marketers are today under more pressure than ever to prove and justify their budget and the investment that they make \u201cbrand\u201d as delivering top line growth and bottom-line profits.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>But let\u2019s drill down with the marketers. You\u2019re a hundred percent right. So, we\u2019ve got the marketers. So, let\u2019s just use, I don\u2019t know, I don\u2019t want to mention a brand because they\u2019re all going to send me things. Let\u2019s just make up a brand XYZ production. God, that was an actual company.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Wagga.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Wagga Bread Rolls. Wagga Bread Rolls has just spent the last 18 months or 12 months going on a massive procurement process to appoint an agency through whatever systems. And whatever bells and whistles.<\/p>\n<p>Generally, it comes down to price and creativity. There\u2019s not much in that about diversity. There\u2019s not much in that about inclusion. So, when Wagga industry says, well, we want to start leaning into the space more, who are they going to reach out to?<\/p>\n<p>They\u2019re not going to reach out to Campfire x, they\u2019re going to reach out to the agency of record. Now that agency of record is going to reach out to Campfire x and say, \u201cCan you come and work with us?\u201d So, we are getting a dilution of a dilution of a dilution.<\/p>\n<p>This is where the brands have to say, \u201cWe are going to redefine our KPIs. So, this is important.\u201d Tourism Australia did it with the Tourism Australia pitch. We didn\u2019t get it, but it was integral to Tourism Australia that First Nations voices were included in that pitching process.<\/p>\n<p>So, again, that system and that way of measuring suitability needs to be looked at. And that\u2019s where the KPIs need to be redefined. And yes, this is what Campfire x does.<\/p>\n<p>But I\u2019m telling the brands it\u2019s not easy. But the outcomes far, far exceed the current way of doing things, which is, let\u2019s face it, the same people getting the same work, the same prod houses is getting the same work, the same directors getting the same work, the same DOPs getting the same work, the same everyone, the same system, rinse and repeat over and over and over and over again.<\/p>\n<p>So, if I\u2019m a First Nations creator from Penrith, how the hell am I going to get an opportunity? Because the chance of a ECD or the chance of a CMO coming across my work and going, \u201cI made a call. We are working with this person no matter what,\u201d is very, very poor because they don\u2019t live in that ecosystem.<\/p>\n<p>To change the thinking, you\u2019ve got to change the environment. That\u2019s again, what Campfire x does. To change the outcome, you\u2019ve got to change the environment. You aren\u2019t going to change the environment if you are leaving Coogee Beach every day and catching a bus into work and working in the CBD and then coming home and doing that five days a week and on the weekend going for a surfer, I\u2019m not having to go with people that live in Coogee, I can assure you. I\u2019m saying-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>No, but it\u2019s when you live a lifestyle, how do you get diversity of thought when you\u2019re having the same experience over and over and over again. And look, to be honest, that\u2019s the thing that cracks me up about DE&amp;I.<\/p>\n<p>First of all, it\u2019s turned into a racial thing, and diversity means almost like there\u2019s a scorecard. I feel like it\u2019s the Noah\u2019s Ark effect. Do we have two of everything because we\u2019re about to flood the land.<\/p>\n<p>I actually think it\u2019s more interesting to talk about from the perspective of representation, how do you represent, you said they weren\u2019t multicultural, they were multi-nation. But how do you represent the diversity of the audience?<\/p>\n<p>Because you need to have experience. And I\u2019ve met many creative people that said, oh \u2026 men that say, \u201cI can write about women\u2019s sanitary products because I understand that,\u201d and so on and so forth. But deep, intimate understanding requires more than just reading about it or secondhand experience.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>It requires you to get out of your comfort zones. The problem is not many people want to get out of their comfort zones. The problem is, not many people want to feel uncomfortable because it\u2019s not nice to feel uncomfortable.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s not nice to have your way of life questioned and your beliefs questioned, and your background questioned and where you are questioned. And no one really wants to go through that.<\/p>\n<p>My argument is, and Campfire x\u2019s belief is that\u2019s where the magic happens. That\u2019s where the best outcomes come. And challenge us too. We want to be challenged as a company.<\/p>\n<p>Recently all that campaign brief stuff came out with all the mail. I didn\u2019t see one single post about the lack of people from diverse backgrounds, not just women, but lack of people from diverse backgrounds as an ECD. I know a, a Sudanese girl that escaped the war that is desperately trying to get into the advertising industry. Desperate. No one-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Very hard to do. It\u2019s very hard. Very hard. I think \u2014 maybe it\u2019s justification, half the population are women.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Sure.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>So, first of all, at the very biggest hurdle the industry\u2019s fallen. Before we get into then the percentage based on race, based on religion. I mean, half of Australia\u2019s population has no religion. But that doesn\u2019t mean that Muslim, Hindu, Christians of the various types and that don\u2019t represent a part of the population.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>A really good point. I get what you\u2019re saying. And believe me, I completely agree, and I dig what Jasmin was saying. And some of my best friends are female creatives, half the pop \u2026<\/p>\n<p>Okay. So, let\u2019s just take that point. What brands came out in support of saying to the female people agitating to make that change? What brands came out and said you had agency, unless you show us your pathways to put a woman as the ECD, you will not have our contract against-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>No.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>No. That\u2019s my point. Absolutely zero.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>And I\u2019ve had those conversations. We run pitches. Because we collect information on which agencies people \u2026 BIPOC, which agencies are women owned. The standard response is I just want the best agency.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>In their subjective opinion.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>No. But they also, in that statement, say that the two are mutually exclusive. That somehow if you\u2019re a B Corp or any of those other things, that somehow that eliminates being the best agency anyway. And that\u2019s not true.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s not true. It\u2019s not true. It\u2019s all optics.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s all hierarchy of importance.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>That was a perfect moment in the history of advertising and media for the brands to turn around and say to the agencies, \u201cThis is wrong.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The parity of women and the quality of women as creatives is clearly not being \u2014 unfair. So, as a brand, as a Telstra, we spend millions on advertising, agencies you\u2019ve got 18 months to get your house in order and have equality and have gender parity or you will not win the account.<\/p>\n<p>Now, what the brands haven\u2019t realized is how powerful a message to that is to the consumers, to the women consumers. To the women consumers, that\u2019s one of the most powerful sales tool you can get. That we are taking a stand.<\/p>\n<p>Brands have got to stop having a better each way. And they are, they\u2019re trying to have a better each way. They\u2019re going, well, this is the way it\u2019s always been done, and this is our traditional agency and this is that, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it\u2019s all bullshit.<\/p>\n<p>Brands can make a call tomorrow and turn around and say, \u201cAs one of the biggest spenders, ad spenders in this country, we want to see you hit these KPIs. We want to see you hit.\u201d And that includes women and that includes First Nations and that includes people of color that in that includes Middle Eastern.<\/p>\n<p>Whatever the KPIs are, guess what? Why aren\u2019t they doing it? Because the very people that are responsible for making the decisions come from the same background as the very people that work in the ad agencies.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>And it\u2019s not just that issue. They\u2019re not doing it about climate crisis. They\u2019re not demanding that agencies address issues around their greenhouse gas emissions. They\u2019re not demanding that they enforce a DEI structure. It\u2019s bundled up as ESG, which sits over there in most big corporates and isn\u2019t part of the marketing or the overall strategy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s a-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Isn\u2019t there a danger? Sorry, Kirky, isn\u2019t there a danger, this is all about doing things to look right, or is there actually an upside, like you\u2019ve already told me this is not easy. It comes with some risk. So, there has to be an upside to this.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>The upside is it\u2019s better than what is now, what we\u2019ve got now because it isn\u2019t working. And that\u2019s what-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Allows you to stand out. And that\u2019s the number one problem.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>It allows you as a brand to say, this is what we believe in. Now we all saw this happen back in 2020 with the Black Lives Matter and all that. Where\u2019s all that gone? That was great. Channel 10 went to black for 30 seconds and a couple of shows and said, we support Black Lives Matter. Okay. Channel 10, great. What are you doing for First Nations?<\/p>\n<p>If you support Black Lives Matter, what are you doing for First Nations people in Australia? Where\u2019s the opportunities? Where\u2019s the pathways? Where\u2019s the outcomes? Where\u2019s the KPIs? Et cetera. I\u2019m not having to go at Channel 10, using an example because some of my good friends work at Channel 10.<\/p>\n<p>This is an opportunity for brands to turn around and lead us and show leadership and say, this is our stance. This is the stance we are taking. Nothing pisses me off more than a brand to turn around and say, well, we believe in this. Dip their toe in the water and say, well, it\u2019s all too hard. And then walk away.<\/p>\n<p>Because it\u2019s not hard. Well, sorry, it is hard, but it needs to be hard. But once you come out the other end, everything about that company\u2019s going to be better because here\u2019s the juxtaposition in all this, these brands, these major brands, where do you think the majority of their workers come from?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Not from those handful of postcards.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Not from those handful of postcards. So, people are going to start feeling proud when they show up to work and their company is showing, we believe in this. We are listening to you, even though you are from out West, even though you are from, I don\u2019t know, Concord, whatever. Again, I\u2019m not saying \u2026<\/p>\n<p>I will certainly feel proud of going to work and work harder again, KPIs and work harder and have a better output knowing that my company has leaned in and said, we believe in this. We believe in supporting you guys publicly. Not internally.<\/p>\n<p>Publicly through their messaging, through their strategy, through their comms, through their advertising. And this is the biggest frustration about the advertising. This industry can change the way Australia thinks. Has the opportunity change the way Australia thinks.<\/p>\n<p>Has the opportunity to say to Bazza and Shaza, we hear you, but they\u2019re not, they\u2019re not. Because the brands are too caught up in the system of measuring what works and not bringing in other systems that measure how other things might work.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>I think there\u2019s definitely \u2026 and you\u2019ve said it, it takes courage, it takes-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Takes leadership.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>It takes leadership. It takes courage. And it also takes people finding a way to being able to access it. And that\u2019s why I wanted to have this yarn today-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ll tell you a story. I\u2019ll tell you a story about an ad, I won\u2019t mention their name. There was a young first Nations girl that worked at a well-known ad agency that the senior leadership creative team wanted to win a diversity award. And they put this girl through absolute hell.<\/p>\n<p>Now, I was brought in to actually try and work with that. And halfway through the conversation I turned and said to one of the creatives, first and foremost, I didn\u2019t even understand why the creatives weren\u2019t sacked on the spot. That\u2019s another story.<\/p>\n<p>Why are awards so special? Why are they held in such? And the answer was because they\u2019re our KPIs. That\u2019s one of our KPIs, winning awards.<\/p>\n<p>That is the most absurd thing I\u2019ve ever heard because it\u2019s so subjective. So, why wasn\u2019t inclusion a KPI? Why wasn\u2019t acceptance A KPI? Why wasn\u2019t diversity of thought a KPI? Why wasn\u2019t outstanding and different output of KPI, no awards was a KPI. So, guess who judges awards? Advertising people for God\u2019s sakes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>More of the same.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>More of the same.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>I actually saw that during my advertising career, I got the opportunity to go and judge awards in Asia, in Taiwan for all of Asia. No English speaking-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Fantastic.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>And I was sent because the executive creative director didn\u2019t want to go, couldn\u2019t see how it would be even remotely relevant. I have to tell you, it was some of the freshest, most interesting creative because it couldn\u2019t rely on language because it would often be across multiple dialects or whatever.<\/p>\n<p>And so, it was very visual. It just blew me away the quality of the work. I came back and I talked to \u2014 because at the time I was president of the Melbourne Advertising Design Club, and I said, \u201cWhy aren\u2019t we seeing this sort of work here?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And they said, oh \u2026 poo-pooed it because it doesn\u2019t fit a particular look. You need to have an open mind or be of the culture to actually understand why-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>And be challenged and have your beliefs challenged. Some of the best work that I have ever seen have come out of the slums of Kolkata, come out of India, come out of the slums of the Philippines, comes out of slums of Brazil, comes out of the slums of Indonesia.<\/p>\n<p>Some of the most outstanding work I\u2019ve ever seen have come from areas of low socio. Why? Because art and creativity is the way out of poverty. We don\u2019t have that here. We don\u2019t have-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>We\u2019re all very comfortable.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Wow. Comfortable or apathetic. I would prefer to use the word apathetic.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Well, we\u2019re apathetic in our comfort because we don\u2019t have to.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Because the brands aren\u2019t challenged them. And I know we\u2019ve got to wrap up, but I\u2019m going to tell you a quick little story. So, I\u2019m a big fan of mandatory minimums. And what mandatory minimums are is if the government, federal and state governments are awarding a contract, say it\u2019s a big bridge, 7% of that value of that contract has to go on in First Nations businesses.<\/p>\n<p>Could be a caterer, could be security, could be a painter, whatever it is. Guess which industry doesn\u2019t have mandatory minimums?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Advertising.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Advertising. Why? Because they lobbied hard, and I use the word \u2014 I\u2019m not going to mention any names. They lobbied incredibly hard. Two, the procurement people in Canberra to demonstrate in their crazy way that there\u2019s no First Nations agencies out there that have capacity to run government campaigns. Absurd.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Protecting the status quo.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Protecting the status quo. Yeah. So, this is the frustrating thing for me. When the Voice was going on, I was watching all this happening, knowing that in the advertising and media industry and comms industry, there\u2019s no accountability for brands not to work with First Nations people.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Yet, the whole thing was about-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>The whole thing was about the Voice. Yet these very ad agencies are making millions off the back of the Voice. The hypocrisy of it all, buddy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Because I have a fundamental belief. People do not do things because it\u2019s the right thing to do. They do things because it\u2019s the right thing for them to do. And I think that\u2019s one of the things that we\u2019ve seen here, is that in the way we\u2019ve seen a lot of the conversation about First Nation people in Australia framed, it\u2019s about doing the right thing rather than doing the right thing for everyone.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Well, what is doing the right thing? Again, it\u2019s not about helping First Nations, it\u2019s about-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>In the patronizing way.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Yeah. That\u2019s not the right thing. It\u2019s about educating the Bazzas and Shazzas of the world to say, we believe in this, and we want to show you how beautiful this art can be. How beautiful this way of thinking can be. What talented group of people these people are.<\/p>\n<p>Everyone knows Yothu Yindi, everyone talks about the song Treaty. What people don\u2019t know is Paul Kelly and Peter Garrett were the ones that got together and I just forget the guy\u2019s name. I should remember the lead singer, Yothu Yindi. It was a combination of those three coming together, is what I\u2019m trying to say.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>To write that song.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>To write that song and develop that song. And Paul Kelly said, \u201cWe are going to make this song together.\u201d So, that was a combination of three brilliant people coming together.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Because Treaty is at the very heart of the Uluru statement of the heart.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>It is. Which I\u2019m a big fan of the Uluru statement of the heart. Big, big fan. Can pretty much recite it back-to-back. I think it\u2019s a wonderful document.<\/p>\n<p>But again, drill down, how do we measure KPIs against that? How do we say this is working? How do you go to your boss in six months and say, \u201cLook, here\u2019s the statement from the heart and here\u2019s the outcomes and we can measure this, and we\u2019ve made this much money out.\u201d It\u2019s the only language that people understand. And there\u2019s ways to do it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Well, and we\u2019ve seen it. It\u2019s taking a long time. But the UN development goals, sustainable development goals was something from 2015, which is trickling through globally across all 17 of those. There are ways of doing it. Correct. It takes, as you say, a measure and a sales pitch.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>And a good leader.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>To make people to do it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>And a good leader. Poor old James Greet, he\u2019s been talking about this for quite a while. Greet is a lovely bloke. Absolutely lovely bloke. And he\u2019s, same thing. He\u2019s like, \u201cUntil we start putting KPIs and measuring tools against this, implement it. Put ways of measuring the success. Follow it through.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Understand that it\u2019s a hard journey. Understand that it\u2019s going to be challenging. Because being made to feel uncomfortable is not pretty, but it\u2019s not about you. It\u2019s not about you being uncomfortable. It\u2019s about the journey and it\u2019s about us all coming together. That\u2019s it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Well, Peter Kirk, we\u2019ve run out time. It\u2019s great yarn and thank you for taking the time.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>I can\u2019t believe how well-behaved my dog was. Look, she\u2019s full on asleep.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Slept all the way through it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Ruby, come on. That\u2019s very passionate.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Darren<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Heard a bit of snoring in the background. But that\u2019s okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Peter<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Anyway, no good yarn. Thank you so much.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Peter Kirk is a multi-award-winning Indigenous TVC and film director, creator and connector at Campfire x. Campfire x is an Indigenous-owned and run creative consultancy agency that brings Indigenous thinking and talent into the mainstream by unifying the 97% of Australians who are not Indigenous with the 3% who are. They develop creative strategies that [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":83772,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[98],"tags":[8397,20049,8402,12636],"dealstore":[],"offerexpiration":[],"class_list":["post-83771","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-marketing","tag-advertising","tag-indigenous","tag-marketing","tag-storytelling"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v26.4 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Indigenous Storytelling In Marketing And Advertising - Som2ny Network<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?p=83771\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Indigenous Storytelling In Marketing And Advertising - Som2ny Network\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Peter Kirk is a multi-award-winning Indigenous TVC and film director, creator and connector at Campfire x. 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