today!<\/em><\/p>\n <\/p>\n
You clerked for Sandra Day O\u2019Connor and Pierre Leval before you left the profession. What\u2019s it like being back in a room full of lawyers?<\/h4>\n
Gretchen Rubin:<\/strong> I love it. I feel like my heart is still with lawyers. I so identify with their outlook on the world and their issues. For me it\u2019s always a special pleasure to talk to lawyers.<\/p>\nAnd it\u2019s interesting to come at it from the relationship side, because one of the big things I always write about is how relationships are a key to happiness\u2014maybe the<\/em> key to happiness. So much of what Esther was saying on stage was explicitly about relationships. It was interesting to see how she went deeper into that and broke it into these different parts. How does trust lead to belonging? How do you think about a group being resilient and an individual being resilient? Then the importance of recognition, which you think of as very different from belonging, but I thought she did a really good explanation of how all these things fit together.<\/p>\nEverybody has their own vocabulary and their own approach, so it\u2019s very interesting for me to think about how those dovetail.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
The Four Tendencies split people into Upholders, Questioners, Obligers, and Rebels. A firm owner looks around at 20 employees. Where do they start?<\/h4>\n
Gretchen Rubin:<\/strong> That\u2019s something a lot of people are frustrated by, because they say, \u201cI don\u2019t have time to manage everybody individually. I need to find a way to communicate with everybody.\u201d<\/p>\nSo think about it this way. If you\u2019re going to announce some change you want to make\u2014we need to switch to a new software program\u2014you need to explain what the timeline is, because that\u2019s what Upholders and Obligers need. But you also need to explain why<\/em> you\u2019re making the change, because Questioners won\u2019t get on board if they don\u2019t understand why. And then for the Rebels, you have to explain that this is good for you, this is what you would want, you\u2019re going to make more money, you\u2019re going to save time.<\/p>\nWhen you\u2019re communicating, you want to hit those different notes. And sometimes people say, \u201cWho\u2019s got time for that?\u201d It\u2019s the relationships. In the end, if you\u2019re not communicating with somebody, they just aren\u2019t going to cooperate. They\u2019re not going to do it in a timely way, or they\u2019re not going to do what you want.<\/p>\n
Or take something like micromanaging. What one person absolutely resists and feels is intrusive and a waste might be, for another person, a very helpful set of accountability. These people are different. You can\u2019t have a one-size-fits-all solution, because people are just so different from each other.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
A lot of lawyers are Obligers. Whatever you ask me, I\u2019ll do it, call me at 3 a.m. What can they do for themselves?<\/h4>\n
Gretchen Rubin:<\/strong> Obligers are great. That\u2019s why I\u2019ve had people who want to screen so they only<\/em> hire Obligers.<\/p>\nIf you are the Obliger yourself, there are a couple of things you can do. One is to say, \u201cI have to say no to somebody, so I get to pick who I say no to.\u201d My team wants me to stay late, but my family wants me to come home for dinner, so I have to say no to someone. You don\u2019t treat it in isolation, like \u201cI have to stay late because of my team.\u201d You always ask, well, who am I saying no to? Because once they know they have to say no to somebody, they can make a choice.<\/p>\n
Another one, which I thought was interesting, is to say, \u201cI\u2019m going to say no in order to give someone else an opportunity.\u201d So it\u2019s not that I\u2019m being lazy, it\u2019s not that I\u2019m letting you down. I\u2019m very senior, I\u2019ve done this kind of thing many times, but here\u2019s a junior person, and for them it would be a really exciting challenge. It would be a major step up. You\u2019re still doing it in the service of other people. You\u2019re still meeting that outer accountability. But you\u2019re explicitly invoking it to get yourself off the hook. You\u2019re reframing the obligation and the expectation.<\/p>\n
Or it\u2019s, \u201cIf I burn myself out, then I might let you down. If I get so wiped out that I have a physical collapse, I\u2019m not going to be able to represent you well. If I burn myself out, maybe I\u2019ll quit my job and desert you altogether.\u201d It\u2019s the oxygen mask thing. I have to serve myself in order to serve you.<\/p>\n
I will say, as an Upholder, I used to resist it when people would say, \u201cI have to take care of myself so I can take care of others.\u201d I\u2019d think, take care of yourself because you<\/em> need it! You don\u2019t need to worry about other people. Who cares about them? But that\u2019s not very compelling to Obligers.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n
And what should the person managing them be watching for?<\/h4>\n
Gretchen Rubin:<\/strong> In a group setting, it is often the case that Obligers are exploited and taken advantage of, because other people go to them. They know they\u2019re the ones most likely to agree.<\/p>\nSo you really have to be aware of fairness. Look around and ask: Is one person serving on eight committees while everybody else is serving on one or two? Is somebody consistently taking the drudge work? Is somebody consistently working hours beyond what other people do? Are they doing the unpleasant travel? Are they working with the most difficult people? Because it starts as \u201cYou\u2019re so good with these difficult people, nobody can handle them like you,\u201d and now they\u2019re dealing with every nightmare client and everybody else is doing the easy stuff.<\/p>\n
As the boss, you want to look around and say, is this fair? You don\u2019t want to lose some of your most valuable employees because you\u2019re burning them out and overextending them. Because eventually, they will rebel.<\/p>\n
Colleagues can help here too. Sometimes Obligers won\u2019t speak up for themselves, but they\u2019ll speak up for somebody else. They\u2019ll say, \u201cI don\u2019t understand. Why did Peter get put on this deal? He\u2019s already got five deals. What about all the people who aren\u2019t working on it and have a lot of free time?\u201d You can speak up for each other and point out when things aren\u2019t fair, instead of saying, well, if you said it\u2019s okay, then it must be okay.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
How do you get an Obliger to actually take a vacation?<\/h4>\n
Gretchen Rubin:<\/strong> Not by saying, \u201cYou need to take time for yourself.\u201d That just sounds like more work for me to do.<\/p>\nIt\u2019s: \u201cLook, I\u2019m looking at the last 52 weeks and you have taken very little vacation time. I can tell that you\u2019re starting to run on fumes. I want you to come back to me by the end of the week and tell me what your plan is for taking at least a week off.\u201d<\/p>\n
So I\u2019m giving you accountability to come to me with a plan, but I\u2019m kind of forcing you to restore yourself. I\u2019m not expecting you to do that on your own. A lot of times people say, well, if it\u2019s important to the Obligers, then they should just do it. That doesn\u2019t work for Obligers.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
Now the Rebel. A brilliant associate, in a profession built on precedent and rules and structure.<\/h4>\n
Gretchen Rubin:<\/strong> I could imagine a Rebel starting their own law firm, because they think, I don\u2019t want anybody to be the boss of me, so I\u2019m going to do everything my own way. And then you\u2019re working for a Rebel boss, and that is not easy either.<\/p>\nPeople say, \u201cI don\u2019t want to have to tailor everything to every little individual snowflake.\u201d But once you know somebody is a Rebel, you can really frame things according to: this is what you want, this is what you choose, this is who you are.<\/p>\n
So you\u2019d say something like, \u201cI know it\u2019s really important to you to feel like you are a super-reliable colleague. And when you\u2019re consistently late, you make me feel like your time is more important than my time.\u201d I\u2019m reminding you of an identity that I know is important to you, because you see yourself as a good colleague. Or, \u201cI know you value being a high performer, and you\u2019re really on track to make a ton of money this year. But if you keep this up, you\u2019re just not going to make the same kind of numbers that you otherwise would.\u201d<\/p>\n
And as much as you can, let them do their own work in their own way. \u201cWow, this is a really tough problem. You\u2019ve got the chops to handle it. I have faith in you. If you run into any roadblocks, come to me, I would love to help. But otherwise, I\u2019ll just look forward to you coming to me in a month or two and telling me what your plan is for handling this.\u201d<\/p>\n
Sometimes a challenge works, and some people don\u2019t like this because it is kind of manipulative. It\u2019s, \u201cEverybody says that you could never come on time to a meeting for even a month.\u201d And they say, oh, I\u2019ll show you.<\/p>\n
But part of it is that just recognizing different people\u2019s tendencies automatically allows you to start speaking their language a little bit more.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
You write about clearing clutter as a first step to feeling calmer. In a firm full of documents and deadlines, where do you even start?<\/h4>\n
Gretchen Rubin:<\/strong> Somebody told me about this and I think it\u2019s a really great idea. At their firm\u2014it wasn\u2019t a law firm, it was something analogous, an advertising agency\u2014once every two months they blocked out a Friday afternoon. It was basically, get your stuff sorted.<\/p>\nEverybody would come into the office, and for half a day, they\u2019d bring in some kind of fun lunch, and the idea was that this was dedicated time where your work was to file, throw away, and sort. Because in an office there\u2019ll just be stuff, and you think, why is this dead plant here? Well, I can\u2019t get rid of it because it doesn\u2019t belong to me. So it sits there for 15 years.<\/p>\n
So you say to somebody, you\u2019re the one who\u2019s supposed to go around and look in the corners, and on the shelves, and on the tops of the filing cabinets, and just clear. Because everybody says, well, it could be important, so I can\u2019t get rid of it. But it\u2019s been there for 10 years. What\u2019s in it? Nobody\u2019s even looked. And it\u2019s distracting that it\u2019s there, because every time you think, oh, maybe that\u2019s the thing that I need.<\/p>\n
It can be really valuable to periodically give people that time explicitly, and to do it as a group, because a lot of the time no one person is going to go to that banker\u2019s box, because they don\u2019t have the authority. But if you say, we\u2019re all doing it, now is the time, then you figure it out, deal with it, get it out, and it\u2019s not sitting in the conference room for the next 10 years. You ask, why do we have this?<\/p>\n
What you don\u2019t<\/em> want is for people to just sit there and clean out their inbox. That\u2019s just working.<\/p>\n <\/p>\n
Is there a practice you use yourself?<\/h4>\n
Gretchen Rubin:<\/strong> Yes, and this could work really well in the law context. The last 10 minutes before I leave my office, I spend just clearing off my desk. I put pens in the pen cup, I throw away Post-it notes I don\u2019t need anymore, I reshelve books. I put everything back so that when I come in in the morning, it\u2019s all ready.<\/p>\nThat\u2019s also very calming. One of the things you see in happiness and habits is that transition points are very draining. That\u2019s why a lot of times people will eat unhealthy food during a transition\u2014you come home from work and you immediately have an unhealthy snack. Transitions are demanding. So anything that helps you have a little bit of a transition is helpful. It\u2019s probably even more important when I work from home, because then I have so little transition between work and home.<\/p>\n
Another thing that works well for people is around Monday mornings. Some people get the Sunday blues and find Monday mornings really stressful. A friend of mine who has her own agency just sets that aside for quiet reacclimation work. She doesn\u2019t schedule big meetings, she doesn\u2019t try to do anything really demanding before lunch on Monday. She goes through her inbox, sorts through the mail, does the little bits and bobs, so she can ease into the week.<\/p>\n
She said it made Sunday much less stressful, because she wasn\u2019t expecting herself to just throw herself into the week. And she said in the end her productivity was so much higher, because she was really ready, instead of feeling this immense resistance starting her day and feeling overwhelmed by Monday.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
Lawyers are paid to be skeptical and pessimistic. Can that coexist with happiness?<\/h4>\n
Gretchen Rubin:<\/strong> It\u2019s what we\u2019re paid for, to be skeptical and pessimistic. And it\u2019s hard, because you really are inculcated in that. It\u2019s what you\u2019re rewarded for and asked to do\u2014to anticipate. What if this marriage ends spectacularly? What if this partnership blows up? What if we come to blows?<\/p>\nSo part of it is just being aware that that is your training, and that it\u2019s not the only way to look at the world. Sometimes people forget that they\u2019re especially trained.<\/p>\n
The other thing is that skeptical and pessimistic people will often ruminate and be very consumed with worries, because in their own minds they\u2019re very capable of saying, my kid\u2019s going off to a party with his friends, what are all the things that could go wrong? You\u2019re so good at that.<\/p>\n
So one thing that can help people who worry a lot is scheduling time to worry, which sounds very counterintuitive. But you literally schedule time to worry. You put it on your calendar at a specific time. If you worry a lot, maybe it\u2019s every day, or maybe it\u2019s once a week. You don\u2019t want to do it before bedtime. And it\u2019s really helpful to have pen and paper, because sometimes when you worry you think of things that need to get done.<\/p>\n
Then if you start to ruminate, or perseverate on these feelings\u2014here are all the things that could go wrong, oh, I thought of something else that could go wrong\u2014you say, okay, I\u2019m going to do that when I have scheduled time to worry. You\u2019re not trying to suppress it, because the more you try to pretend that you\u2019re not worried, the more it\u2019ll come flooding back. But you set aside time and say, I\u2019ll worry about that then. I have time for it. I\u2019m not ignoring it. I\u2019m not burying my head in the sand. I\u2019m just not going to let it seep into every moment of every day. It works really well for people.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
You made a successful legal career and then left it. A lot of lawyers have something else they\u2019d rather be doing. What\u2019s the first step?<\/h4>\n
Gretchen Rubin:<\/strong> There\u2019s an amazing book written about that by a friend of mine, and I really think it\u2019s an outstanding book. It\u2019s called The Creative Lawyer<\/em>, and it\u2019s written specifically for lawyers who want to think about pivoting to a different career. Maybe they want to go into nonprofits, maybe they want to write a novel, whatever it might be. It\u2019s about how you do that in a systematic, careful way, because it\u2019s just not realistic for most people to blow up their lives and walk away from their profession and start something new. He takes you through a process of how you\u2019d ease into it.<\/p>\nI\u2019ll say that when I switched from law to writing, I spent about 18 months still working full time in law, writing the book in my free time. So by the time I was ready to try to get an agent and a book deal, it wasn\u2019t like I\u2019d quit my job the first minute I decided. Sometimes you have an overlap, so you can be gaining your skills and your knowledge while you\u2019re still in the old profession. Because I think sometimes people believe they have to burn all their bridges and go all the way. But that\u2019s so scary. It\u2019s not very realistic.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
Were you anxious it wouldn\u2019t work out? Did you have a plan B?<\/h4>\n
Gretchen Rubin:<\/strong> Thinking back on it, I wasn\u2019t that anxious about it. At a certain point I decided, I\u2019d rather fail as a writer than succeed as a lawyer. So I need to succeed or fail and see how it goes.<\/p>\nI was at an open place. I had moved from DC to New York, so I didn\u2019t have a job, and I thought, well, this is my chance to really try. But I didn\u2019t worry about it that much. Maybe because I was just naive. I bought a book about how to write and sell a nonfiction book proposal, and I thought, I\u2019ll just follow the directions and see how it goes. And that\u2019s how it went.<\/p>\n
There was one day, though. My husband and I met in law school, and he switched into finance when I switched into writing. And we got a notice about our New York State bar fees, which are expensive. And I said to him, should we pay our bar fees?<\/p>\n
And he said, why would we pay our bar fees?<\/p>\n
And I was like, okay! We\u2019re doing this. We\u2019re not paying our bar fees. We\u2019re going rogue. At the time I thought it was this huge thing. Now I know you can go back\u2014there is a way to go back\u2014so it wasn\u2019t as dramatic as I thought it was. But that was a moment where I was like, okay, we\u2019re doing this.<\/p>\n
<\/p>\n
Takeaway: Look at the last 52 weeks<\/h3>\n
Almost everything Rubin recommends cuts against a manager\u2019s instinct to standardize. Four different explanations for the same software rollout. A Friday afternoon that bills nothing. A recurring calendar entry that says Worry<\/em>.<\/p>\nOne item on the list costs an afternoon and no money at all. Pull up the last year and count. Committees. Drudge assignments. Unpleasant travel. The clients nobody else will take. Vacation days left on the table. One name will keep appearing, and it will belong to the person least likely to ever raise it with you\u2014which is exactly why counting is the only way you\u2019ll find out.<\/p>\n
Because eventually, as Rubin says, they will rebel.<\/p>\n
Gretchen Rubin led a keynote conversation with Esther Perel at ClioCon 2025. To hear from the legal professionals, innovators, and advocates shaping the future of law, get your tickets to<\/em> ClioCon 2026<\/em><\/a> today.<\/em><\/p>\n\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"Gretchen Rubin clerked for Sandra Day O\u2019Connor. Then she left law to write a book, and the moment it became real was a notice in the mail. The New York State bar fees came due. She asked her husband (whom she met in law school, and who was leaving law for finance at the same […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[97],"tags":[12822,55017,8191,13466,7295,10436,5400],"dealstore":[],"offerexpiration":[],"class_list":["post-7072622","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-legal","tag-conversation","tag-eventually","tag-gretchen","tag-lawyer","tag-rebel","tag-reliable","tag-rubin"],"yoast_head":"\n
Your Most Reliable Lawyer Will Eventually Rebel: A Conversation With Gretchen Rubin - Som2ny Network<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?p=7072622\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Your Most Reliable Lawyer Will Eventually Rebel: A Conversation With Gretchen Rubin - Som2ny Network\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Gretchen Rubin clerked for Sandra Day O\u2019Connor. Then she left law to write a book, and the moment it became real was a notice in the mail. The New York State bar fees came due. She asked her husband (whom she met in law school, and who was leaving law for finance at the same […]\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?p=7072622\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Som2ny Network\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2026-10-02T08:27:17+00:00\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"admin\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"admin\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"18 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"Article\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?p=7072622#article\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?p=7072622\"},\"author\":{\"name\":\"admin\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/#\/schema\/person\/b85e3c3dc0e1daea076524dc8810c371\"},\"headline\":\"Your Most Reliable Lawyer Will Eventually Rebel: A Conversation With Gretchen Rubin\",\"datePublished\":\"2026-10-02T08:27:17+00:00\",\"mainEntityOfPage\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?p=7072622\"},\"wordCount\":3597,\"commentCount\":0,\"publisher\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/#organization\"},\"keywords\":[\"Conversation\",\"eventually\",\"Gretchen\",\"Lawyer\",\"Rebel\",\"Reliable\",\"Rubin\"],\"articleSection\":[\"Legal\"],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"CommentAction\",\"name\":\"Comment\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?p=7072622#respond\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?p=7072622\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?p=7072622\",\"name\":\"Your Most Reliable Lawyer Will Eventually Rebel: A Conversation With Gretchen Rubin - Som2ny Network\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/#website\"},\"datePublished\":\"2026-10-02T08:27:17+00:00\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?p=7072622#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?p=7072622\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?p=7072622#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?bp_activities=1\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"Your Most Reliable Lawyer Will Eventually Rebel: A Conversation With Gretchen Rubin\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/\",\"name\":\"Som2ny Network\",\"description\":\"Daily Deals\",\"publisher\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/#organization\"},\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":{\"@type\":\"PropertyValueSpecification\",\"valueRequired\":true,\"valueName\":\"search_term_string\"}}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Organization\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/#organization\",\"name\":\"Som2ny Network\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/\",\"logo\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/07\/4a0953c4-logo-300x86-1.png\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/07\/4a0953c4-logo-300x86-1.png\",\"width\":300,\"height\":86,\"caption\":\"Som2ny Network\"},\"image\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/\"}},{\"@type\":\"Person\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/#\/schema\/person\/b85e3c3dc0e1daea076524dc8810c371\",\"name\":\"admin\",\"image\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/729ae85bf62b9917e93538db2f2688ca?s=96&r=g&default=https%3A%2F%2Ffivemor.com%2Fwp-content%2Fplugins%2Fbuddypress-first-letter-avatar%2Fimages%2Fdefault%2F96%2Flatin_a.png\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/729ae85bf62b9917e93538db2f2688ca?s=96&r=g&default=https%3A%2F%2Ffivemor.com%2Fwp-content%2Fplugins%2Fbuddypress-first-letter-avatar%2Fimages%2Fdefault%2F96%2Flatin_a.png\",\"caption\":\"admin\"},\"sameAs\":[\"https:\/\/fivemor.com\"],\"url\":\"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?author=1\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Your Most Reliable Lawyer Will Eventually Rebel: A Conversation With Gretchen Rubin - Som2ny Network","robots":{"index":"index","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"canonical":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?p=7072622","og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"Your Most Reliable Lawyer Will Eventually Rebel: A Conversation With Gretchen Rubin - Som2ny Network","og_description":"Gretchen Rubin clerked for Sandra Day O\u2019Connor. Then she left law to write a book, and the moment it became real was a notice in the mail. The New York State bar fees came due. She asked her husband (whom she met in law school, and who was leaving law for finance at the same […]","og_url":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?p=7072622","og_site_name":"Som2ny Network","article_published_time":"2026-10-02T08:27:17+00:00","author":"admin","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_misc":{"Written by":"admin","Est. reading time":"18 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"Article","@id":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?p=7072622#article","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?p=7072622"},"author":{"name":"admin","@id":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/#\/schema\/person\/b85e3c3dc0e1daea076524dc8810c371"},"headline":"Your Most Reliable Lawyer Will Eventually Rebel: A Conversation With Gretchen Rubin","datePublished":"2026-10-02T08:27:17+00:00","mainEntityOfPage":{"@id":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?p=7072622"},"wordCount":3597,"commentCount":0,"publisher":{"@id":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/#organization"},"keywords":["Conversation","eventually","Gretchen","Lawyer","Rebel","Reliable","Rubin"],"articleSection":["Legal"],"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"CommentAction","name":"Comment","target":["https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?p=7072622#respond"]}]},{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?p=7072622","url":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?p=7072622","name":"Your Most Reliable Lawyer Will Eventually Rebel: A Conversation With Gretchen Rubin - Som2ny Network","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/#website"},"datePublished":"2026-10-02T08:27:17+00:00","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?p=7072622#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?p=7072622"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?p=7072622#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?bp_activities=1"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"Your Most Reliable Lawyer Will Eventually Rebel: A Conversation With Gretchen Rubin"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/#website","url":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/","name":"Som2ny Network","description":"Daily Deals","publisher":{"@id":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/#organization"},"potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":{"@type":"PropertyValueSpecification","valueRequired":true,"valueName":"search_term_string"}}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Organization","@id":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/#organization","name":"Som2ny Network","url":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/07\/4a0953c4-logo-300x86-1.png","contentUrl":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/07\/4a0953c4-logo-300x86-1.png","width":300,"height":86,"caption":"Som2ny Network"},"image":{"@id":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/#\/schema\/logo\/image\/"}},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/#\/schema\/person\/b85e3c3dc0e1daea076524dc8810c371","name":"admin","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/729ae85bf62b9917e93538db2f2688ca?s=96&r=g&default=https%3A%2F%2Ffivemor.com%2Fwp-content%2Fplugins%2Fbuddypress-first-letter-avatar%2Fimages%2Fdefault%2F96%2Flatin_a.png","contentUrl":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/729ae85bf62b9917e93538db2f2688ca?s=96&r=g&default=https%3A%2F%2Ffivemor.com%2Fwp-content%2Fplugins%2Fbuddypress-first-letter-avatar%2Fimages%2Fdefault%2F96%2Flatin_a.png","caption":"admin"},"sameAs":["https:\/\/fivemor.com"],"url":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?author=1"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/7072622","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=7072622"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/7072622\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=7072622"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=7072622"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=7072622"},{"taxonomy":"dealstore","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fdealstore&post=7072622"},{"taxonomy":"offerexpiration","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fofferexpiration&post=7072622"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}