\n<\/p>\n
\u201cWe are living in a pivotal moment in labor history,\u201d Cole Rockarts writes in their new book Fired Up About Unions<\/em>. \u201cAt a time when corporations have more power, profit, and political influence than ever before, workers are leading inspiring union organizing campaigns and taking on bosses to win big\u2026 Their struggles reveal that everyday people can unite, change their conditions, and build better workplaces and a better world.\u201d In this episode of Working People<\/em>, we speak with a panel of labor organizers across the USA and Canada about why labor unions are more important now than ever, and how workers organizing collectively can change their workplaces, their lives, and the world.<\/p>\n Panelists include: Hassan Husseini of the Public Service Alliance of Canada and Labor for Palestine \u2013 Canada; Tina Oh of SEIU Local 2 in Hallifax, Canada; Alex Raymond of Teamsters 322 in Virginia, USA, and Cole Rockarts, veteran labor educator and organizer and author of the new book Fired Up About Unions<\/em>.<\/p>\n The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. It will be updated.<\/em><\/p>\n Maximillian Alvarez:<\/p>\n All right. Welcome everyone to Working People, a podcast about the lives, jobs, dreams, and struggles of the working class today. My name is Maximillian Alvarez, and today we are talking about labor unions, why they are important, why they have always been important for working people, and why they are more important now than ever, and why you should be part of one. In their new book, Fired Up About Unions, veteran labor educator, organizer, and writer Cole Rockharts writes, \u201cWe are living in a pivotal moment in labor history. At a time when corporations have more power, profit, and political influence than ever before, workers are leading inspiring union organizing campaigns and taking on bosses to win big. These workers are fighting not just for themselves, but for their communities too. Their struggles reveal that everyday people can unite, change their conditions, and build better workplaces and a better world.\u201d So this is what we\u2019re going to be talking about today, and we\u2019re really basing this conversation on Cole Rockhart\u2019s great new book, which everyone should go read.<\/p>\n You can find it using the links in the show notes for this episode. And I\u2019m really grateful to have Cole Rockarts themselves joining us on the show today. So Cole, welcome. Congratulations on this important book. Could you tell our listeners a little bit about the book and where it came from?<\/p>\n Cole Rockarts:<\/p>\n Absolutely. Thanks, Maximillian. It\u2019s really exciting also to hear someone else read it because it\u2019s just been in the ether for such a long time, so thanks for that. It\u2019s very cool. So Fired Up About Unions, which again, you can get at BTL between the lines in Canada or AK Press in the US or your local library, give it an order there, really examines what unions are, demystifies the myths around unions, that we don\u2019t need them, that they\u2019re outdated, that young workers can\u2019t be organized or different types of workers can\u2019t be organized, and really lays the groundwork of why unions have become so weak in our respective countries in Canada and the US, and talks about why young people can be the antidote to all of the problems facing work and really unions themselves. Unions aren\u2019t perfect, but if we take the view that unions are made up of people and we recognize that our coworkers are just regular people and we all ultimately want the same things, and that\u2019s higher wages, protections at work, health and safety on the job, and better, that\u2019s the great place where we can start to come together and change not only our individual situations, but as I say in the book, our communities and even beyond.<\/p>\n Maximillian Alvarez:<\/p>\n Hell yeah. And we\u2019re going to be talking about how to do that, how to do better, get better, and fight better from the shop floor and beyond. And I\u2019m so grateful with Cole\u2019s help that we\u2019ve pulled together an incredible panel of folks here, union organizers and members from across Canada and the US. And we\u2019re going to dig into all this now, but first I wanted to ask if y\u2019all could introduce yourselves to our listeners.<\/p>\n Hassan Husseini:<\/p>\n My name is Hassan Husseini. My day job is a national negotiator with the Public Service Alliance of Canada, which is the largest federal public sector union in Canada. As such, I\u2019m also unionized member of Unifor Local 2025. Unifor is a merger of a couple of private sector unions in Canada, one of them being the Canadian Auto Workers that split from the American Auto Workers Union back in the 80s. And I am also a member of the National Steering Committee of Labor for Palestine Canada. I\u2019ve been active in social justice and labor movement for 30 plus, maybe more years. Happy to be here. Thank you.<\/p>\n Tina Oh:<\/p>\n Hi folks. My name is Tina Oh. My pronouns are she\/her. I\u2019m joining in from Halifax, Nova Scotia here in Eastern Canada. My role is organizing coordinator with Service Employees International Union Local two. We\u2019re the only national SEIU division in Canada, but I also have a role as vice president for Eastern Canada. So the region is all of Atlanta, Canada, Newfoundland, PI, New Brunswick, and Nova Scotia. Really happy to be here.<\/p>\n Alex Raymond:<\/p>\n Hey y\u2019all, I\u2019m Alex Raymond. I am a mental health worker out of Richmond, Virginia, United States, and I am just a regular worker organizer, very new to the labor space, but very fired up to be here.<\/p>\n Cole Rockarts:<\/p>\n My name is Cole Rocker. My pronouns are they\/them, and I am a longtime union staffer, although the veteran brand doesn\u2019t sit well when Hassan\u2019s in the room. I\u2019ve been working for labor unions for the past 10 years, and that\u2019s been in Canada and the US. And I\u2019m now a labor educator at a healthcare union in Los Angeles. And I am the author of the forthcoming book, Fired Up About Unions, which is about why young people can change the working world and the labor movement.<\/p>\n Maximillian Alvarez:<\/p>\n Oh yeah. So maybe we need an updated taxonomy. We got veterans here and then we got legends with Hassan. So we got the full spectrum here, baby. And I\u2019m so grateful to have all of you on and to hear all of your perspectives on this important subject. So I want to dive right in and ask y\u2019all, what have unions meant to you over your lifetime? What did you know or not know about unions before being part of one? And I\u2019m asking that as someone who does a labor show now, but knew jack shit about unions for most of my life.<\/p>\n Alex Raymond:<\/p>\n I kind of want to just directly responding to that, that was sort of my experience, that labor organizing in mental health, that\u2019s really not a thing. But over the years that I\u2019ve been in this industry, almost 15 years coming up this November, we just see wages decrease the amount of patients or clients that we are responsible for increase expectations going up while benefits go down. And a lot of us just silently accept that. We get into this line of work because we care and it almost feels like a betrayal to the work that we\u2019re so committed to, to even think that better is possible. But it had always been a discussion. And growing up, my dad, he was an organizer with SEIU in Boston during his residency, and he would always tell me this story when he was laid off for labor organizing, that it was just the proudest moment of his professional life when all of his coworkers came to his shitty Boston apartment and they essentially shut the hospital down.<\/p>\n There was a lot of anxiety about what that would do to patients, but there was a lot of camaraderie and that\u2019s something that\u2019s missing nowadays. We\u2019re struggling to get by and we deserve better. And I think that sort of bubbled up over the last couple of years. And a group of us got together a couple years back and we started organizing from the ground up, literally Googling how to make union. And we came into contact with a lot of people that have a lot of expertise and thank God because we needed all the help we can get. And we went from zero union density to more than zero and growing each and every month. And we formed a union here in Richmond, Virginia with Teamsters Local 322. And now there are unions with United Automotive Workers within our industry as well as National Union of Healthcare Workers and United Food and Commercial Workers.<\/p>\n And we\u2019ve had to learn what all those acronyms mean and what they can mean for people in our field. And it\u2019s been a huge thing. But from my perspective growing up, I\u2019d always thought that was such an important thing to do, but just never really knew how to go about doing it.<\/p>\n Hassan Husseini:<\/p>\n From my experience way back when I first became unionized, and I think it\u2019s still with us today, the thinking about unions is that it\u2019s only about money. It\u2019s only going to put more money in your pocket by increasing your wages from what you had before you were unionized. And to me, the thing that struck me, and I think it\u2019s still with me today and in the organizing campaigns that I was involved in, it is really important for us to recognize and talk to workers about the fact that it\u2019s about increasing your power in the workplace. It is about working class empowerment, and it is about some of the things that Cole just rhymed off with respect to health and safety, with respect to being valued in the workplace, giving your voice on so many different committees, and taking away the power, the exclusive power that bosses have without a union.<\/p>\n So I didn\u2019t know that at the beginning. I came in, I though, okay, my wage will go up a little bit, not knowing that it\u2019s going to give me so much more empowerment both individually and as a collective within the workplace. And that is something that opened my eyes to huge possibilities for that particular workplace I was in, but for the working class generally. And that lesson is still with me up to this point. I think things are getting even worse in terms of capitalist bosses propaganda that we can give you a little bit of a bump in your wages. You don\u2019t have to go to unions because they know that when you unionize, you have more power in the workplace and that\u2019s what scares the shit out of them.<\/p>\n Tina Oh:<\/p>\n Hasan, I\u2019m just going to piggyback off that because I think that last point you just mentioned about how non-union workers are still gaining and benefiting off the winds of union workers is so relevant and I think that\u2019s how I want to answer this question. It\u2019s going to take me a second to get there, but I\u2019ll get there. So my family moved to Edmonton, Alberta when I was two years old. My sister was five and it was just my mom and my dad. There was no other kind of family support systems that my parents had in Canada nor in Edmonton. So that like many non-economic migrants, that meant working traditionally low wage service jobs.<\/p>\n My parents have never worked a union job in their working careers in this country. And one of my dad\u2019s longest held jobs was as a housekeeper and a janitor at the Western Hotel, and that was a non-union job. But the reason why that\u2019s relevant is that that job, even though it was non-union, it was the first job that my dad had that gave us health benefits. It was the job that ended up getting us permanent residency so that we could stay in the country. And the reason why, of course, that connects to unions is because the work of the private sector hotel unions that have raised the industry standards to the point that these non-union hotels cannot recruit workers without offering health benefits, without offering them a pathway to permanent residency. And so I think about that job, especially now that I work for a janitor\u2019s union, SEIU Local two, half of our membership is janitors, private sector contracted out janitors.<\/p>\n And now that I\u2019m in this role and I think back to my childhood and the horrors really that my parents had to face in their working careers, I know absolutely without a doubt in my mind that our lives would\u2019ve been better had my dad had a union at that hotel or any union really. And at the same time, I also can see how our lives still greatly benefited from the wins of the working class that have progressed the labor movement to the point where non-union jobs are still offering health benefits and whatnot. So I just wanted to leave that there.<\/p>\n Cole Rockarts:<\/p>\n I think for me, it\u2019s a bit of a combination of all these things. As my co-podcasters have just said, a union can be the difference between having healthcare or not, having benefits or not. When I was younger, I didn\u2019t realize that my mom was unionized. She was a teacher for many years before she retired, and it wasn\u2019t until I started getting involved in my student movement. And in Canada, the student union system is quite different than in the US, and I think the US should absolutely steal this idea from Canada. But many of our student organizations that fight for lower tuition fees or free tuition or more rights for international students or different campaigns of equity on campuses are unionized. So my first foray into having a union was starting to work at the student union and run all these campaigns as a student organizer.<\/p>\n And so it wasn\u2019t until I started getting involved that I had this conversation with my mom about, \u201cOh, there\u2019s this union.\u201d And I was told to go to a meeting because there\u2019s free pizza and I wanted free pizza. And she said, \u201cOh yeah, I\u2019ve been involved in my union. I was a shop steward.\u201d I was like, \u201cWhat the hell is a shop steward? What does that even mean? And it\u2019s essentially the person that represents the workplace while they\u2019re actually working in there, and you can go to them with questions about your contract or different issues you\u2019re having.\u201d And I said, \u201cWhat? You were a shop steward?\u201d She was like, \u201cYeah, I used to carry the book and the book is the contract.\u201d And I said, \u201cI didn\u2019t know that.\u201d She said, \u201cYeah, I\u2019ve been out on strike. I\u2019ve been on the picket line.\u201d And so it was years later that I realized like, \u201cOh my God, my parent has been a union member, has fought for these things, and it\u2019s because of her that I have the life that I have.\u201d<\/p>\n Maximillian Alvarez:<\/p>\n It\u2019s always so fascinating to me to hear stories like yours and the stories that folks have shared with me on this show for the past nine seasons. I always tell folks that I am endlessly fascinated in the stories of our fellow workers who take that step to do something, to change their conditions, because I lived most of my life not knowing that that was an option. Like most people in this country, I\u2019m talking about the US here, when I had crappy jobs, whether they were in service or factories, warehouses, retail, I thought I only had two options. If the job sucked, I could either just stay, grin and bear it, or leave and try to find something better. I didn\u2019t know there was a secret third thing you could do and band together with your coworkers and fight back and stay and fight to improve things.<\/p>\n And so to me, anyone who takes that step, especially in a country where working people are so routinely reminded and conditioned to believe that we are powerless, anyone who says otherwise and does otherwise to me is a hero. And not just that, but the way it changes your perspective on things to take that step, to organize, to bring your boss to the bargaining table, that really changes a lot of the ways that you look at the world and yourself and the work that you do. And I wanted to turn that into a question for y\u2019all. You talked about this a bit in the first round, but I wanted to ask if you could go a little deeper and say how it changes your life at work and beyond when you become part of a union or join a union drive. Did it change the way that you guys all look at your own work in life when you did that?<\/p>\n Tina Oh:<\/p>\n For me as a young person that started labor work, I think I was 21 at the time when I first got my union job. And of course, previous to that, I was part of the student union like Cole was. And we\u2019re living in a time where obviously we can talk about all these crises that are happening, global crises to mention that, and union work really helped make the world make more sense, if that makes sense. And I think a lot of young people, and when I reflect back to what I was thinking through when I was 21, and I\u2019m not saying obviously I\u2019ve got it all figured out now, certainly don\u2019t, but I think a lot of young people are probably really confused and puzzled by all these kind of disparate crises when obviously they\u2019re all interconnected. And maybe we could even say that they are interconnected, but it wasn\u2019t really until I really immersed myself and understood how power works and the history of the gains that workers have made to really push the needle to where we are today.<\/p>\n Things really just started to click. And now when a new crisis happens in the world, it\u2019s just less confusing for me. And I think that\u2019s relevant because that feeling of hopelessness I think really gets reined in when you are in a fighting union because that fighting union is then about solutions and it\u2019s about optimism and it\u2019s about hope. And it\u2019s also about, yeah, we might lose, but we\u2019re just going to get back up the next day and fight again. And so that clarity really became clear when I was part of a union drive and helping workers form unions at their workplace. And seeing the transformation happen to them was so transformative for me because I\u2019m seeing it in real time, ordinary people coming together to do extraordinary things.<\/p>\n Alex Raymond:<\/p>\n Yeah. Tina, hearing you say that, especially that piece about hopelessness was something that was deeply more so than I think I\u2019ve even been aware of in my personal experience of work and working up until the idea that there could be something better came up in my working with this organizing that we\u2019ve done recently. Meeting people across the country that are fighting for change and are in the exact same position. We are inexperienced, we are outnumbered, we are dealing with a very effectively organized managerial group that wants nothing more than to see us lose. And then seeing people like Sean and Noah out in Massachusetts, workers out in California coming together, Jane and Colin out in Marilyn, all these different people that I would not have met had not been for this organizing work changed a lot of that hopelessness into a deep sense of optimism that\u2019s going to be really, really hard to lose.<\/p>\n And that I think is the most important way my life has changed since participating in organizing. And I see it at home, at work. We have this current style of people coming in and out of care work and healthcare, and it\u2019s hard on us. We\u2019re job hopping a lot, but it\u2019s really, really hard on the clients that we serve. We work predominantly for little kids and somebody comes in, they build a relationship with you, and then you can\u2019t afford to work the job anymore, you get burned out. And that\u2019s devastating for those young people, and we want to change that. And since we\u2019ve started organizing, we\u2019re seeing turnover rates decrease. These people believe that better is possible and that possibility is brought into existence through our collective action. We alone can\u2019t formulate what a solution might look like, but collectively we\u2019ve found answers and we\u2019ve put them into practice, not just in one location, but in lots of other locations.<\/p>\n And we\u2019re seeing people pick up the banner with us, and it\u2019s just been one of the most inspiring, if not the most profound experiences of my life. And hearing you speak on that just reminds me why I\u2019m part of this fight.<\/p>\n Hassan Husseini:<\/p>\n This is a really good segue because most of you have done the organizing part, which is the hard part to organize workers into unions. My role as a national negotiator is that I come in to work with these newly organized group of workers to get in place a first collective agreement, which is challenging in and of its own, but it\u2019s during the negotiations for a collective agreement. Well, actually it is during the organizing drive that you see their power and a recognition of the power that they have really come into fruition. But it is also a different kind of a very, very rewarding process when you\u2019re working collectively with workers, trying to get a new collective agreement and seeing the bosses push back to put language in collective agreements that gives them more rights, more powers, more protections, more provisions. This is where you see that they are solidifying their power in the workplace and there\u2019s nothing like it because at times when we\u2019re negotiating new terms, and I\u2019ve negotiated terms in the new collective agreement in the university sector, in the gaming industry, right now I have a group of firefighters in an indigenous community in Southwestern Ontario that I just came back from starting negotiations with them.<\/p>\n And you\u2019ll see that their questions is that, \u201cWhat do you mean we can put language in the collective agreement that is better than the minimum standards?\u201d It\u2019s like, yes, you are organized in order to do that. Minimum standards, you\u2019re protected by it anyway, but your collective agreement, it relies on your power in the workplace, your power in the community, and you\u2019ll see the relationship with their coworkers, their relationship with the boss, their relationship within the community completely changes. It gives them the confidence, it gives them the power, it gives them the power that comes with the fact that when they\u2019re sitting at the bargaining table, no matter what, they\u2019re equals to that boss. And of course, when the boss goes back to the workplace, they try to play games, but you cannot put back, what is that expression, the genie in a bottle or something?<\/p>\n They\u2019ve recognized their power and they\u2019re willing to take that extra steps in order to keep building on it and to demonstrate it in the workplace and outside the workplace. And there\u2019s nothing, nothing, absolutely nothing like it when work is recognized, I want to go Tina\u2019s original point, recognize the power that they have in the workplace and in the community. And I\u2019m privileged, I feel, that I get to work with workers to try to put together collective agreements that give them that extra power.<\/p>\n Cole Rockarts:<\/p>\n Yeah, I\u2019ll just pick up on something Hassan said in his current negotiations about raising the minimum standards. And as organizers and workers, we talk about expectations a lot and great folks have written about raising expectations, so I won\u2019t go into too much of that. But when people realize that not only can they raise the floor at their job, like Alex said, that he could change the mental healthcare industry and the ability for him to have consistency with his clients, with the kids that he\u2019s trying to serve, that\u2019s very mission-driven work. And we see all the time workers in organizing drives, particularly in healthcare, but lots of places, education where they say, \u201cWell, I don\u2019t know if I could do this because I would put the kids or the patients or whoever it is at risk.\u201d But a lot of these campaigns are about connecting, \u201cWell, this would actually make things way more sustainable for the work that I\u2019m trying to do.<\/p>\n This would make me stay. This would help raise my wage so I can provide for my family.\u201d All of these things go back to that question of power. And so when I think about how it changed the way I look at work and life, particularly now coming from Canada and the US, there is an entire industry that is dedicated to crushing workers\u2019 ability to do this. And it has a lot of money behind it. It has a lot of politicians behind it. I mean, the US, we look at right to work states. We look at what is going on in Alberta, Canada right now and the attacks on trying to privatize our healthcare, which is a big no-no in Canada.<\/p>\n We workers, workers historically fought for all these things to get a public healthcare system to get funding. And so I think this\u2019ll go to a little bit about the power that we\u2019re up against, but we also talk about how we don\u2019t have, and it\u2019s because of people crushing unions, we don\u2019t have a lot of money. We don\u2019t have the ability to match dollar for dollar what our bosses are doing, but what we do have is people power. And so I think I was lucky enough to get into it at 20, but since moving here, even in the past few years, I\u2019ve completely changed the way that I see power and what workers are up against as well.<\/p>\n Maximillian Alvarez:<\/p>\n Yeah, man. I mean, in the good old US of A, I mean, we have many rights on paper, but not in reality. And I\u2019m constantly telling folks that you have a right to be a part of and form a union and collectively bargain in your workplace in this country. But in this country, that\u2019s basically saying that Frodo Baggins has a right to go into Mordor, right? I mean, the opposition that you\u2019re going to face, the pain that you\u2019re going to be put through, the system that\u2019s going to chew you up and spit you out just for exercising that right is going to take a lot from you and your coworkers, and you need to be prepared for that. And that\u2019s what I wanted to talk about here in this round. Let\u2019s talk about the hard stuff because we\u2019ve seen over the past few years, over the course of me doing this show, I\u2019ve heard it in the stories we\u2019ve reported, this boom in energy around new labor organizing from the Starbucks workers to the Amazon workers, to the independent union movements, to the revivals within the established unions like the UAW, the Teamsters, some of the historic strikes that have happened in Canada in the past five years.<\/p>\n A lot is clearly happening, but at the same time, I think a lot of folks who got swept up in that energy over the past five years have also come to the hard kind of realities of unions aren\u2019t perfect. Labor law is stacked against you. There\u2019s going to be a whole lot of crap that you\u2019re going to have to go through, but it is worth it. And so I want to talk about that with you guys and sort of address head on these real issues that folks have had or will face when trying to organize. So let\u2019s talk about what people are really going to be up against when they try to unionize today in the US or Canada. And if someone\u2019s listening to this, what do they do when their union sucks or union officials break their heart and screw them over?<\/p>\n Hassan Husseini:<\/p>\n You\u2019re right. There are a lot of unions that, to put it in your words, can break your heart. But I always say having a union, even a shitty union is better than not having a union at all. Because even with a shitty union, there are mechanisms that you can do internally within your union in order to challenge those leaderships that are not willing to fight a good fight on your behalf, but collectively on behalf of all the workers and the community. So definitely I think we\u2019re all on the same page or should be on the same page that unions are better than no unions whatsoever. But we also need to recognize that there are a lot of sellout unions or leaderships within unions that are no longer willing to fight a good fight. They\u2019ve become part of the institutionalized capitalist system. They\u2019ve lost the vision and they don\u2019t advance anything more than protecting their careers.<\/p>\n And they have forgotten that unions are, after all, also political organizations of the working class. And they\u2019ve lost that. And that\u2019s where you see some unions or some leadership within unions making decisions that end up harming workers that they\u2019re supposed to represent. But it\u2019s not the end of the world because I always say that what you need to do as workers, the union is yourself. So you organize internally, you organize in order to bring democracy back into your union and your workplace. And you organize to take over, to take back those unions from those careerist elements within the union movement. Those who are willing to and understand and have class consciousness and they are fighting a class war to go back to the classics. This is the reality of it. And they\u2019re not going to advance a lot of workers if they compromise with the employer on some fundamental issues.<\/p>\n And so our work is premised on the fact that we believe in the power of workers, but we also need to be very realistic about what kind of unions we\u2019re dealing with. And also in my work in organizing in solidarity with the Palestinian liberation struggle and Palestinian workers, I\u2019ve realized that the connection between those unions who are taking better positions in solidarity with international workers around the world is very much connected to how much they\u2019re willing to fight for their own members and for the working class in Canada or the US. And those who have sold out when it comes to the class struggle in their own workplaces and communities and in Canada and the US, you find them that they\u2019re not willing to actually be in solidarity internationally. They may pay lip service, but they don\u2019t do anything concretely to honor that global picket line of the Palestinian people.<\/p>\n And as it was before, the people of South Africa that fought against apartheid. So they\u2019re connected. Good fighting working class unions that have clarity of purpose are also clear on the local, on the national and on the international issues. And we have no choice but to continue to fight a good fight internally to make sure that they stay on the straight path or the left path rather.<\/p>\n Tina Oh:<\/p>\n I want to hear from you, Alex.<\/p>\n Alex Raymond:<\/p>\n Yeah, I\u2019m itching to jump in on this one. So what you\u2019re up against, you hear, especially when you\u2019re new to this, \u201cHey, there\u2019s the NLRB, you have these rights and the NLRB will adjudicate if there\u2019s any unfair action taken against you by your employer.\u201d But my boss, Lindsay Thompson straight up fired me in writing for labor organizing and that\u2019s still in NLRB hell. And we\u2019re expecting a ruling any decade now, probably 2035, 2045, my grandkids will get a decision passed down. So I mean that\u2019s the reality of it. And I\u2019ve got some comrades that have similarly experienced pretty nefarious dealings from their employer because who\u2019s going to stop them? They fire you, you\u2019re kind of done for. And then on the heels of that, my union internally was going through a little bit of drama precisely when I got fired. And that happened to create a really perfect storm that weakened our bargaining unit and set us up for a lot of trouble going into 2026.<\/p>\n But what is the solution? To quote the adage, don\u2019t mourn, organize. And I remind myself that these things, these institutions that exist today were built by the literal blood of people that were massacred and organizing in significantly more difficult conditions today. I lost a job, I got a new job. I wasn\u2019t brutalized in the ways that you encounter in the history book. So not discounting the struggles that people are facing today, it\u2019s just that the solution remains the same, which is you organize. And my union, we organize internally, brought it up to the local president. They got it fixed. He\u2019s out there on the line with us, every opportunity he\u2019s got. And they\u2019ve done an incredible amount to organize with us. And not just Brian Payton with Teamsters Local 322 and a huge chunk of amazing UPS workers, Jennifer Hancock, those folks coming out, making sure that we\u2019re all right and that this group of workers gets represented fairly.<\/p>\n But the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, especially their caucus of rank and file electrical workers, it\u2019s an internal caucus that has come together and shown up for workers in Richmond and across the country in really profound ways. If there\u2019s a worker struggle in town, there\u2019s going to be hard hats there. And I think it\u2019s that kind of ethos that we need to really embrace. One worker\u2019s struggle is my struggle and it\u2019s been really hard. There was an understandable amount of almost desperation when we did everything right and the employer is just able to break every rule and get away with it. But I think it taught us a very valuable lesson, which is that you don\u2019t just win a vote and then you\u2019re all done. You organize not just to win a contract, but then to enforce it and then to be able to have the capacity to show up for other workers because there\u2019s not just one fight and then you\u2019re done.<\/p>\n This is a global fight. The cause of every member of the working class is our cause. So this is the fight of a lifetime, not just for a contract or a vote or some particular grievance. So I think it\u2019s been hard, but we\u2019ve learned a lot of lessons and we\u2019re continuing to learn. And a lot of that is because of the very cool people that are on this panel today. So shout out to y\u2019all.<\/p>\n Maximillian Alvarez:<\/p>\n Well, and obviously the fact that we have such an incredible panel of folks from Canada and the US, and Cole, you came from Canada to the US. I was wondering if you could also wrap into this question the differences of the situations and the things that folks are going to face in the US versus Canada while we\u2019re answering this question.<\/p>\n Cole Rockarts:<\/p>\n Absolutely. I think I have two different parts to this answer. The first is that I think in Canada we have a different history when it comes to not only our labor movement, but our political parties. I think in the US, you folks are locked into the two party hell, that is the Democrats and the Republicans. Our system in Canada is multi-party and we had a labor movement that formed a political party that became the new Democratic Party, the NDP. And those were the folks I mentioned earlier that led to Medicare, healthcare being public in this country. And I say that not to give a knighthood to politicians because we know that everything that we\u2019ve won in any country has come from workers pushing for that and pressuring that and always will be, always has been. And so I think that\u2019s one of the big differences.<\/p>\n And obviously in the negotiation realm, when you don\u2019t have to think about Medicare or healthcare being part of the contract and you can instead think about the things in Canada that haven\u2019t gotten into that system like drug care, prescriptions, it changes the negotiation landscape for sure. I think the other big difference is the matter of density. And I mentioned the word density earlier, but that is how many workers percentage-wise are unionized within a given population. So in Canada, that is much, much higher. In the US, it\u2019s brutal and it shows all of the things that have \u2013<\/p>\n Maximillian Alvarez:<\/p>\n We\u2019re below 10% now, I believe. That\u2019s<\/p>\n Cole Rockarts:<\/p>\n Correct. And I\u2019ll just say to your listeners, the Economic Policy Institute put out this amazing report about what would change if union density in the US was higher. And the reality is we would have healthcare. We would have about, give or take, 7,000 extra dollars a year in your pocket. And I don\u2019t know about anyone else on this call, but I think people could use 7,000 plus dollars a year.<\/p>\n Maximillian Alvarez:<\/p>\n And that\u2019s $7,000 a year that you would get in your contract versus the kind of fantastical fake $5,000 that President Trump is promising you if you just believe him and vote the way he wants in the midterms.<\/p>\n Cole Rockarts:<\/p>\n Exactly. And I\u2019ll just say quickly on that, studies have shown that in countries where there are strong labor movements, there are more democracies. Even if we look at the US, we see that in right-to-work states, there are more attacks right now on the voting system than there are in states with higher union density. And so that\u2019s kind of the first part of the answer to my question. But the second part is how is Canada and the US different? They\u2019re not. Workers in Canada and workers in the US coming from both places, they\u2019re not that different. They want the same things. They want higher wages, they want benefits, they want good jobs, and they want clean air and for the AI overlords to not ruin the planet and put a data center in their backyard. And so same as it ever was, workers, no matter the country, if they can get enough power, they can change things and make things better.<\/p>\n Tina Oh:<\/p>\n Everything yes, that Cole just said, a thousand percent. I just want to say genuinely, SEIU, it\u2019s a giant of a union, one of the biggest in the US. And so when I look at my comrades in the US, not just in SEIU, but US unions in general, I really don\u2019t have a problem in saying, I genuinely think it is harder to organize in the US than it is in Canada. And I don\u2019t mean to say that as good or bad, as simple as that. But I think where in Canada workers have made gains like card check, which is a one-step unionization system. All you have to do is sign a union card. There\u2019s no vote. Where there\u2019s successor rights in the three biggest provinces of our country. So Quebec, Ontario, BC, the most populated provinces have successor rates. That means contracted workers when there\u2019s contract flip that the new employer has to hire them on and keep their contract.<\/p>\n Those are two really sizable, genuinely\u2026 Those are huge wins, legislative wins that workers have made in this country. And it has, for maybe a less sophisticated word, I think it does actually produce some lazy organizing when I compare it to my comrades in the US who have to strike for recognition or right to work states where the dues aren\u2019t guaranteed. And part of that lazy organizing is it can get dangerous, of course, because we know, just as Cole said, the bosses are the same. The power that they have will absolutely crush us. Our dollars can\u2019t compete. Our legal can\u2019t compete. And so when organizers on the ground, whether it\u2019s a member organizer, worker organizer, staff organizer, is taking these shortcuts, we know we\u2019re going to get hit by those shortcuts down the road because a fight is coming guys. A fight is always coming. And so I think it\u2019s a really important, I think, moment for Canada-based organizers where even though we\u2019ve made those gains like card check-in successor, that we do the right thing, which is to develop and recruit the best leaders we can in our organizations and keep it a fighting organization.<\/p>\n And that means yes, there might be shortcuts, but we\u2019re actually going to do the really rigorous spade work that is required to build a fighting union.<\/p>\n Maximillian Alvarez:<\/p>\n Hell yeah. I thought that was all beautifully and powerfully put, y\u2019all. And it bears mentioning that you could say the same thing about unions here just a little farther back in our history. I mean, the union density in this country at its height was around 30% or a little over. I mean, unions built the middle class, they gave us the weekends. We know all the talking points, but then that middle class gave up on the struggle. They cared more about their middle class existence, their specific contracts. They lost that sense of working class solidarity. And here we are 40, 30 years later with the results. Union density below 10%, wages have been stagnant or declining, cost of living has been going up, power has been shifting to the top away from the bottom. So I think the real takeaway message from Canada to the US to everywhere is don\u2019t get complacent.<\/p>\n The struggle has to continue, and I could genuinely talk to you guys for hours about how to continue that struggle. And I\u2019m so grateful for the conversation that we\u2019ve had, but I know we have to wrap up here. And so I wanted to finish with a big picture question that y\u2019all have touched on in this conversation, but for folks who are listening to this right now and saying, \u201cYeah, that all sounds great, but why should I care about unions now in the year of our Lord 2026 when the world is on fire and everything sucks and these oligarch nut jobs are taking over everything and destroying the planet?\u201d So what would you say to folks in closing who are still in that head space?<\/p>\n Alex Raymond:<\/p>\n Yeah, what I would say is why you should care about a union now is because things have already gotten to a point where we\u2019re feeling the everyday economic ramifications of those decisions. And whatever inertia is kind of keeping us moving in this direction, if we can overcome that, if we can come together, we can identify any solutions that need to be found and start putting them into practice so that we can build a future that we want to be part of. And I know that sounds like fanciful language, but every small step in the right direction is also a step we\u2019re not taking in the wrong direction. And it feels difficult. It feels impossible. It feels exhausting when you think about it individual terms, but you\u2019re not alone. People like me don\u2019t know a ton. I\u2019m sitting on a panel today with Hassan, Cole, Tina, and you, Max, and there\u2019s a lot of expertise out there and you\u2019re not alone.<\/p>\n So nothing weaker than the feeble strength of one. We got this together.<\/p>\n Hassan Husseini:<\/p>\n Very briefly, I think that for all the reasons that you spoke about Maximilian, it\u2019s for all these reasons, because the world is run by not oligarchs, it\u2019s for the reason that they\u2019re destroying the planet, the reason that we have Trump in the White House and Mark Carney in Ottawa that are governing on behalf of banks and corporations and the super rich. It\u2019s for all these reasons that we need unions if for nothing else to equalize things, to make sure that they fight for working people on the shop floor, but also they continue to fight for better society, for all the working class. And also they continue to make sure that international solidarity is not just a performative thing, but a real element of the work of unions. And without unions and without organizing and without that kind of mass democratic organizations that we value so much, that we will fall back even more.<\/p>\n And so from that perspective and because of that, unions are a lot more critical today than in my opinion, they were 50 years ago or 60 or 70 years ago. And we finish on the adage again that an injury to one is an injury to all. So this is not about individual protection, it\u2019s about a collective work, a collective organizing and collective protection and collective empowerment.<\/p>\n Tina Oh:<\/p>\n I think a good union organizer knows how to answer any question with the answer being union. And so to me, it\u2019s why should people care about unions? Well, it\u2019s less about why people should care about unions, more about do you want a better life for you and your family and your loved ones? If so, the only answer is union. And I believe that. We just talked about the trickle down effects of increasing union density is that we live in a better society. There\u2019s healthcare improvements, education improvements, life expectancy, I\u2019m sure. And so I think that question that Cole talked about, workers in US, Canada, across any border, they want a better life for themselves and their families. I don\u2019t know a single ordinary working person that doesn\u2019t. And the answer to that question is going to be union.<\/p>\n Cole Rockarts:<\/p>\n Couldn\u2019t agree more. I think the answer is unions. If we look at the world being on fire, what\u2019s going to protect workers that are going out in increasingly record-breaking heat working outside if they\u2019re postal worker, construction laborer, what is going to do that? Is the boss going to say, \u201cOh, I\u2019m recognizing it\u2019s a bit hot and unsafe out there. This doesn\u2019t need to get built today. This work doesn\u2019t need to get done.\u201d No, bosses are going to continue to try and extract as much as they can. So that\u2019s one example. If we look at this mass global movement in many countries, unionized dock workers have stopped the ports and refused to unload Israeli cargo.<\/p>\n The struggle of the anti-war movement, the struggle for basic protections of not dying on the job, and yes, the individual and materialistic thing of wanting more money in your bank account so you can pay your rent, so you can buy food, so you can get the basic necessities, all comes from having a strong resourced infrastructure. And the only thing that working people have in this country right now is a union. And so that would be my answer. Why should you care about unions now? It is literally the only thing that working people have on our side. And that\u2019s not big you union, that\u2019s you and your coworkers coming together to push for more and to fight the boss and to hopefully win.<\/p>\n Maximillian Alvarez:<\/p>\n All right, gang, that\u2019s going to wrap things up for us today. I want to thank our guests, Hassan Husseini of the Public Service Alliance of Canada and Labor for Palestine Canada, Tina Oh of SEIU Local two in Halifax, Canada, Alex Raymond of Teamsters Local 322 in Virginia, and Cole Rockhart\u2019s veteran labor educator and organizer and author of the excellent new book, Fired Up About Unions, which everyone should go read. And you can learn more about the book using the links that we provided in the show notes for this episode. And of course, I want to thank you all for listening, and I want to thank you for caring about this. We do this work for you, but we cannot do it without you. Working People is brought to you in partnership with In These Times Magazine and the Real News Network. This show is produced by the great Jules Taylor and is a proud member of the Labor Radio Podcast Network.<\/p>\n We\u2019ll see y\u2019all back here next time for another episode of Working People. And in the meantime, go explore all the great work that we\u2019re doing weekly at the Real News Network, where we do grassroots reporting that lifts up the voices and stories of people on the front lines of struggle around the US and across the world. Subscribe to our YouTube channel. Check out our great podcasts like Under the Shadow and The Marc Steiner Show, and connect with us on social media and get updates on our reporting there and help us do more work like this by going to therealnews.com\/donate and becoming a supporter today. It really, really makes a difference. I\u2019m Maximillian Alvarez. Take care of yourselves. Take care of each other. Solidarity forever.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n