{"id":7041546,"date":"2026-08-19T02:25:03","date_gmt":"2026-08-19T02:25:03","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/peraltafinancing.com\/uncategorized\/socrates-turf-merve-emre-agnes-callard\/"},"modified":"2026-08-19T02:25:03","modified_gmt":"2026-08-19T02:25:03","slug":"socrates-turf-merve-emre-agnes-callard","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?p=7041546","title":{"rendered":"Socrates\u2019 Turf | Merve Emre, Agnes Callard"},"content":{"rendered":"


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The philosopher Agnes Callard is one of the most genuinely curious thinkers I have ever met. Whether she\u2019s writing about unrequited love, parenting, politics in the classroom, or the moral failures of people who like to travel, I get a thrill hearing her examine ordinary life from unexpected angles. And I love to disagree with her, which I often do. <\/p>\n

Callard teaches at the University of Chicago and is the author of several books, including, most recently Open Socrates: The Case for a Philosophical Life<\/em>, which came out last year. She joined me to talk about perhaps the oldest form of the interview, the Socratic dialogue, and what we might learn about asking questions and seeking the truth from Socrates and other gadflies.\u00a0<\/p>\n

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Merve Emre: <\/strong>Agnes, when we were organizing this speaker series, you and I talked about different manifestations of the interview, and you proposed the Socratic dialogue as an interesting example. Over the course of our emails, we started referring to it as \u201cthe philosopher\u2019s interview.\u201d Do you think that is justifiable? What would one have to believe about the interview as a genre to posit the Socratic dialogue as an example of it?<\/em><\/p>\n

Agnes Callard:<\/strong> It would be a kind of interview where what the person reveals about themselves is not what they intended to reveal, which may be true of many interviews, but in the Socratic dialogue it\u2019s true in an intense and concentrated way. There\u2019s a self-evidently adversarial tone, because Socrates is not simply trying to figure out what kind of person his interlocutors are, he\u2019s trying to figure out whether they really know what they claim to know. In the Socratic interview, everybody ends up being the same. You might think if you interviewed many people, you would learn about different ways to be, but when Socrates interviews people, they\u2019re all ignorant. From an interview point of view, you could see that as a failure in getting to know someone.<\/p>\n

When you speak with people as part of your conversation series at the University of Chicago, do you think of yourself as participating in the tradition of the Socratic interview? Or are you trying to do something different?<\/em><\/p>\n

I would love to do the thing that Socrates does, but I can\u2019t. That has a lot of different facets: one is the presence of skill or ability on my end; another is that it\u2019s not socially acceptable.<\/p>\n

What skill do you lack, and why would it not be acceptable?<\/em><\/p>\n

There\u2019s an expectation that when you invite an esteemed person to your campus, you\u2019re not trying to show your students that they\u2019re ignorant. What I am doing is more like what I do when reading Socrates. One of the joys of the history of philosophy is that all of us are stuck in our own heads, and we have a set of ideas and views. You look at the world from your point of view. But being yourself day after day gets dull after a while. When you get to know these authors from different periods of history and different social worlds, if they are systematic enough, they have a set of thoughts that fit together into a point of view that you can inhabit. So, for example, you can be Descartes. When I interview you, I\u2019m trying to teach my students what it\u2019s like to think the way you think. I am presenting a mind that has its own mode of operation, and if we get to know it well enough, and if it is internally consistent enough, then we can become liberated from our minds.<\/p>\n

What happens when that mind, whose internal workings you are trying to extrapolate for your students, turns out to be, in your estimation, wrong or ignorant? Does the Socratic impulse to teach the person how they might recalibrate the workings of their mind kick in?<\/em><\/p>\n

When you\u2019re inhabiting the person, you\u2019re not allowed to step outside. I am channeling the author that I\u2019m teaching and defending their views, but it\u2019s the job of the students to attack those views. So, in effect, they are Socrates against everybody. Sometimes I come to points where it\u2019s hard to see how to make it work, but in philosophy, you can\u2019t say, \u201cI am now wrong,\u201d because as soon as you say that you\u2019ve moved to some other view. You have to hold on to the wrong view. When you\u2019re being the person, there\u2019s no escape from seeing their point of view as the truth, just as when you\u2019re yourself, there\u2019s no escape from seeing your own point of view as the truth.<\/p>\n

If, in the Socratic interview, the point is to unearth a single truth from whomever one encounters, the opposite of that is the interview that allows people, including the person being interviewed, to more fully inhabit the truth from their perspective. Is that right?<\/em><\/p>\n

There\u2019s a way in which there\u2019s always just one truth. It might appear to you differently depending on whose mind you\u2019re inhabiting, but there\u2019s just one. There are modes of interviewing that are excited about the prospect of human heterogeneity, by contrast with modes of interviewing that view it as detritus we have to clear away.<\/p>\n

When I asked you to pick the Socratic dialogue you thought would be most amenable as an interview, you picked <\/em>The Apology. Could you give a little summary of the text and tell me why you thought this was the best example of the Socratic interview?<\/em><\/p>\n

The Apology<\/em> is Plato\u2019s version of the speech of self-defense Socrates gives when he is tried by the city of Athens for corrupting the youth and not believing in the gods. In the end, he is found guilty and put to death. It is Socrates\u2019 most extended accounting of himself. The Apology<\/em> is his answer to the question \u201cWho am I?,\u201d and he does it in an interesting way: by telling a kind of myth of himself, like a superhero origin story. He\u2019s explaining how he got to be who he is. We\u2019re getting to know Socrates in particular; that\u2019s why it seemed like an interview.\u00a0<\/p>\n

I want to read the very beginning of <\/em>The Apology: <\/em><\/p>\n

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How you, oh Athenians, have been affected by my accusers, I cannot tell, but I know that they almost made me forget who I was, so persuasively did they speak, and yet they have hardly uttered a word of truth. But of the many falsehoods told by them, there was one which quite amazed me. I mean, when they said that you should be upon your guard and not allow yourselves to be deceived by the force of my eloquence. To say this when they were certain to be detected as soon as I opened my lips and proved myself to be anything but a great speaker did indeed appear to me most shameless, unless by the force of eloquence they mean the force of truth. For if such is their meaning, I admit that I am eloquent.<\/em><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n

Socrates seems to say that he has heard the accusations of his \u201cevil fame\u201d so many times that he risks believing in his accusers: \u201ctheir persuasive words almost made me forget who I was.\u201d It suggests that one reason to embark on the interview is because you have forgotten who you were amid the detritus of human utterance. The point of interviewing yourself, and perhaps of interviewing others, is to remember who you are when rumors of your \u201cevil fame\u201d begin to circulate. How does that strike you as a motivation? Is he speaking tongue in cheek, or is there earnestness in that opening?<\/em><\/p>\n

I think it\u2019s earnest, but there\u2019s a real move being made there. When he says, I was almost carried away, Socrates is saying \u201crhetoric has an effect on me.\u201d So next, he must counteract that, explaining, They said I was an accomplished speaker. One imagines two possibilities springing from this statement: one is that when Socrates speaks, he is obviously not an accomplished speaker, and his accusers are wrong, but then, Socrates has<\/em> been an accomplished speaker in that he was able to prove his accusers wrong. Now, let\u2019s say that he is incredibly witty and clever, and he overwhelms the audience. Now, he\u2019s proved the court right by winning over the audience. So, if they\u2019re wrong, they\u2019re right, and if they\u2019re right, they\u2019re wrong. He\u2019s in a tangle. Socrates identifies this, saying, Unless they call an accomplished speaker the man who speaks the truth. The way out of this rhetorical mess is just to go with the truth. Socrates reorganizes the conversation on his turf. He\u2019s saying that to play on their rhetorical turf is to land yourself in contradiction.<\/p>\n

I understand what you\u2019re saying about the way this all gets reframed, but I don\u2019t know that that answers my question. If you are someone who has suffered from evil fame, then is the Socratic interview a genre that lets you remember who it is that you were?<\/em><\/p>\n

That is very much how Socrates uses The Apology. <\/em>He uses it to clear up this misrepresentation of himself from Aristophanes. He creates a set of accusations that he\u2019s then going to respond to, so he is using this opportunity to clear his name. Now, the question is: Is he clearing his name in his own mind as well? I don\u2019t think we can say Socrates had become confused about his own nature, but in social reality, the way that people represent you is part of what you are, so, in that sense, the rescuing of your name is the rescuing of yourself. When defending oneself, one is able to make their own representation of themselves. The Apology<\/em> is Socrates\u2019 reclamation of his own story.<\/p>\n

Part of the superhero origin story is that Chaerephon, a friend of Socrates\u2019, goes to the oracle and asks who the wisest man is, and the oracle says Socrates. So Socrates goes on a mission to figure out how this could be the case by interviewing the wisest people he knows. He begins with the politicians, then moves on to the poets, and ends with the artisans. In these interviews, he has a realization about the kind of wisdom that he has. This epiphany is one Socrates often has in the dialogues, including with the first politician he speaks to. He says, \u201cFor he knows nothing, and thinks that he knows. I neither know nor think that I know.\u201d Later in <\/em>The Apology, he describes his wisdom as \u201ca position between knowledge and ignorance.\u201d What kind of a position is that for the interviewer or the questioner to assume?<\/em><\/p>\n

It is very hard for the interviewee to put forward \u201cI don\u2019t know anything,\u201d because I\u2019ve got to answer your questions. Characteristically, that\u2019s not Socrates\u2019 role. He is usually the one asking the questions, but in this dialogue, he is answering for himself. There\u2019s a sense in which the interviewee cannot say, \u201cI am ignorant,\u201d so instead, Socrates says he has a certain kind of human wisdom. The Apology <\/em>is the only place I know where Socrates ascribes wisdom to himself. That wisdom is of the situation, saying, Let me explain what\u2019s been going on. I can tell you who I really am, I can tell you what I\u2019m really being accused of. I understand all this very well. That\u2019s not an ignorant mode. There\u2019s a wrinkle in that he claims, I don\u2019t claim to know things I don\u2019t know, which is not a humble confession.<\/p>\n

I see The Apology<\/em> not as a humble or ignorant text, but a self-glorifying one. The Chaerephon oracle story places him in conversation with Oedipus: Socrates gets some information from an oracle that he finds incredible, he can\u2019t believe that it\u2019s the truth, so he decides he has to resist the oracle and spends the rest of his life doing it. The Oedipus story concludes that you can\u2019t fight the oracle, human beings are playthings of the gods, life is tragic, and you should give up now because you have no knowledge. The Socratic version of that story has a very different moral, which is that you can live a happy life and live well by not assuming that you understand the oracle and what it means. You can fight it by trying to investigate and decipher its riddle, even if you\u2019re ignorant, and you don\u2019t blow up your life. The Apology<\/em> is Socrates saying, I\u2019m ignorant, and I lived a pretty good life. It\u2019s kind of a boast.<\/p>\n

You\u2019re reminding me of a previous guest, Sheila Heti, who described the interview as a practice of consulting oracles<\/a>. She stopped wanting to do interviews when she could no longer imagine her subjects as oracular speakers, becoming more interested in the prophecies issued from her own mind as opposed to from the mouths of others. That\u2019s when she started interviewing AI chatbots instead of people. I just want to hear your reaction to that. I\u2019m not quite sure how to put your understanding, from a set of ancient texts, of consulting the oracle as a way to not blow up your life alongside Sheila\u2019s very contemporary sense that the oracles have nothing left to say, so there\u2019s no point in even asking.<\/em><\/p>\n

There\u2019s an important detail I left out, which is that Oedipus goes to the oracle and asks, Who are my mother and father? And the oracle responds, You\u2019re going to kill your father and marry your mother. He doesn\u2019t notice that he didn\u2019t get an answer to his question, so he runs away from home thinking he\u2019ll avoid his fate. When Chaerephon comes back to Socrates and tells him that the oracle said there was no one wiser than him, Socrates still thinks, I am not wise. That is the Harry Potter<\/em> moment that we\u2019ve all been waiting for our whole lives, when some divine source tells you that even though it might not appear that way, you\u2019re secretly a lot wiser than everyone around you. The degree to which the human soul longs for that experience makes it almost unbelievable that when faced with such a declaration, Socrates thinks that the oracle must be wrong. The difference between Socrates and Oedipus lies in whether they have decoded what the oracle has said. The question, \u201cAre there oracles?\u201d is really a question about us, what decoding we are prepared to do, and what things we feel we can take at face value. The speech of AIs seems to require remarkably little decoding.<\/p>\n

In some ways, it\u2019s the opposite of what Socrates says about interrogating the poets, who he says \u201care like diviners or soothsayers who also say many fine things, but do not understand the meaning of them.\u201d Anyone who\u2019s done an author event with a poet knows how true this is. Socrates goes on to say that even the good artisans fall into the same error as the poets, because \u201cthey were good workmen, they thought that they also knew all sorts of high matters, and this defect in them overshadowed their wisdom.\u201d Part of the practice of the interview, as he\u2019s conducting them to understand the distinctiveness of his own wisdom, seems to be to differentiate between things like genius and inspiration and the high matters, which require understanding\u2014as opposed to simply producing\u2014beautiful things. Is that a fair way of describing the way he\u2019s using the interview to understand his own distinctiveness?<\/em><\/p>\n

I taught a class last quarter on literary modernism, and we read Hermann Broch, and in one of his novels there is a discussion about the relationship between the aesthetic and the ethical that made a big impression on me. It postulates that it\u2019s important to us to see the work of art, in some substantial way, as a thing that the artist made. We really want to see art as the externalization of something in the artist. Here, Socrates is challenging that. He\u2019s essentially saying a work of art is an accident. He argues that some people are empty vessels who accidentally produce amazing things sometimes. It\u2019s a serious diss to artists. The way he knows is that, if there were anything intentional in there, they would be able to say something about where the art came from. If you ask them about it, what comes out of their mouths is garbage, that is evidence for the disconnect between the aesthetic and the ethical.<\/p>\n

Part of the question running through <\/em>The Apology is the public-versus-private dimension of the Socratic interview. I\u2019m curious to hear you speak a little bit about the relationship of privacy versus publicity to the aims of the Socratic interview.<\/em><\/p>\n

When Socrates says, I have not lived a public life, what he means is he didn\u2019t try to steer the city in the assembly. But in many ways, these conversations were public, and that\u2019s exactly what he\u2019s on trial for. People liked Socrates humiliating some famous guy. A big part of what these people objected to is that they were being shown up publicly. Think of The Symposium<\/em>. It\u2019s private in a way, but the whole beginning of the dialogue is how the story got around. There\u2019s something odd about the public-private distinction when applied to Socrates. To the extent that he was magnetic and unavoidable and entrancing, that\u2019s part of what made him threatening.<\/p>\n

He must walk this fine line between privacy and publicity, so that he\u2019s being instructive but not punitive, because part of the charge that he brings against his accusers is, If you really thought I was corrupting the youth, you\u2019d understand that I was doing it inadvertently, and if you knew I was doing it inadvertently, then you would know that it would be wrong to put me on trial. You would have approached me and admonished me privately.<\/em><\/p>\n

That\u2019s right. He thinks he\u2019s admonishing people privately. He\u2019s not admonishing them in the assembly or in the courts. He\u2019s admonishing them in their homes, or in the home of someone they\u2019re staying with, or outside the steps to the courthouse. In that sense, it\u2019s private, but it is not.<\/p>\n

What is at stake in setting up the terms on which one has the conversation in front of the semipublic, semiprivate audience, as opposed to doing it truly privately?<\/em><\/p>\n

There are dialogues that are totally private, no one\u2019s watching. But it\u2019s made clear. Socrates says things like, I wouldn\u2019t say this if anyone could hear what I\u2019m saying to you.What is remarkable about the Socratic dialogues is how much in those conversations, even when there\u2019s an audience, is a negotiation over what we\u2019re doing by having this conversation. I think that\u2019s interesting, because it\u2019s not so true of us today. Renegotiation happens, but not, \u201cLet\u2019s have this conversation in a different way.\u201d Socrates was introducing a new game, and teaching people the rules as they were playing. He must constantly show how people are doing it wrong, which isn\u2019t just a matter of saying, \u201cYour views are false,\u201d it\u2019s a matter of saying, \u201cYou don\u2019t know what it is to answer a question.\u201d The stuff that would be relegated behind the scenes is just part of the scene, because there\u2019s nothing they could agree to; these people don\u2019t know what he\u2019s doing.<\/p>\n

My favorite moment of renegotiation is at the beginning of <\/em>The Symposium, when Agathon says, If you sit close enough to me, wisdom can pour from your mind into my mind, like water through cheese cloth. Socrates is like<\/em>, No I\u2019m good, we\u2019re going to do this through a particular discursive mode, because you can\u2019t pour wisdom from one person\u2019s mind into another by mere proximity.<\/em><\/p>\n

The moment after Socrates is convicted I find extremely moving. He says, Do not think of my conviction as evidence of the failure of my speech. He means that the deficiency that led to his conviction was not a deficiency of words. He goes on to say, \u201cI had not the boldness or impudence or inclination to address you as you would have liked me to do, weeping and wailing and lamenting, which are things that you have been accustomed to hear from others, and which, as I maintain, are unworthy of me.\u201d What is, for him, the role of passion in the Socratic interview?<\/em><\/p>\n

Socrates is very self-aware and explicit about the fact that he is not doing what people would normally do in his situation: crying and bringing his family to cry. That is the biggest part of him conducting this interview on philosophical terms. It is related to what he says in Plato\u2019s Gorgias<\/em>, which is that oratory has no use, and that you should never use flattery for any purpose. He thinks that when you play on people\u2019s emotions, it\u2019s a form of flattery.<\/p>\n

Say he were to come before the jury with tears shining down his face, saying, \u201cPlease save my life.\u201d He would be relying on the jurors feeling good about themselves if they let him go. They could then have a conception of themselves as good and empathetic people, and he\u2019d be feeding into that. Flattery is a way to force people to do what you want them to do, but not get them to notice, because the pleasure that they feel in the experience covers the use of force. Socrates thinks that\u2019s bad, and you should never do it.<\/p>\n

In thinking of these dialogues as interviews, are you trying to rehabilitate Socrates?<\/em><\/p>\n

I am trying to push back against a conception of the purely negative Socrates. I wouldn\u2019t call that rehabilitation, because a lot of people love that Socrates and some people find him really annoying. I\u2019m sad that I didn\u2019t wear the pants that I made for my book tour that have many of Socrates\u2019 views on them, like \u201cEveryone desires the good,\u201d \u201cIt\u2019s better to have injustice done to you than to do injustice,\u201d \u201cThere\u2019s no such thing as weakness of will,\u201d \u201cVirtue is knowledge,\u201d etc. People ask, \u201cDidn\u2019t Socrates just not think anything, and wasn\u2019t he just arguing?\u201d The thought that Socrates just refutes people is wrong. But the interesting thing is that his midwifery amounted to extracting those views from the most reluctant mouths. <\/p>\n

Where do you get the view that it\u2019s better to have injustice done against you than to do injustice? You get it out of Polis. Where do you get the view that you should exercise self-restraint and not pursue pleasure excessively? You get it out of Callicles. Those are the people he had to refute to get it. He is delivering these idea-babies right from people, because there\u2019s only one way for the conversation about virtue to go. There\u2019s only one set of ways for it to make sense. Part of why I want to recover that is not just to rehabilitate Socrates, but because I think those views are compelling. We don\u2019t want to lose Socratic intellectualism. It\u2019s an ethical theory worth considering that gets obscured with the image of Socrates as a skeptic.<\/p>\n

Is there anxiety about how his iconicity gets in the way of the work that he\u2019s doing in the Socratic dialogues?<\/em><\/p>\n

He seems worried about the icon of Socrates in The Apology<\/em>. \u00a0I wonder who\u2019s worried about it, Socrates or Plato. You must ask yourself the question, \u201cWhy is Socrates famous?\u201d If it\u2019s 399 BCE, the answer isn\u2019t Plato yet. It\u2019s Aristophanes. It\u2019s arguable that Socrates\u2019 fame and the kind of persona that appears in the dialogues is due to Aristophanes. There\u2019s a little competition between Plato and Aristophanes about who discovered Socrates. I read that into The Apology<\/em>. It\u2019s Plato saying, \u201cThat old one was totally wrong, but this new one that I\u2019m giving you, this is Socrates.\u201d But there are so many texts where Socrates will say things like, \u201cI just don\u2019t care what people think about me.\u201d The thought that Socrates would care about how his icon is fashioned seems strange to me, but the thought that Plato would care is not strange.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

The philosopher Agnes Callard is one of the most genuinely curious thinkers I have ever met. Whether she\u2019s writing about unrequited love, parenting, politics in the classroom, or the moral failures of people who like to travel, I get a thrill hearing her examine ordinary life from unexpected angles. And I love to disagree with […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":7041547,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[6359,203918,203917,203916,203915,203914,33777],"dealstore":[],"offerexpiration":[],"class_list":["post-7041546","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-uncategorized","tag-agnes","tag-callard","tag-emre","tag-merve","tag-socrates","tag-the-critic-and-her-publics","tag-turf"],"yoast_head":"\nSocrates\u2019 Turf | Merve Emre, Agnes Callard - Som2ny Network<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?p=7041546\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Socrates\u2019 Turf | Merve Emre, Agnes Callard - Som2ny Network\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"The philosopher Agnes Callard is one of the most genuinely curious thinkers I have ever met. 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