{"id":40762,"date":"2025-01-22T05:37:24","date_gmt":"2025-01-22T05:37:24","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/peraltafinancing.com\/business\/marketing\/life-cv-the-joys-and-perils-of-freelancing-and-that-campaign-brief-list\/"},"modified":"2025-01-22T05:37:24","modified_gmt":"2025-01-22T05:37:24","slug":"life-cv-the-joys-and-perils-of-freelancing-and-that-campaign-brief-list","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?p=40762","title":{"rendered":"Life CV, The Joys And Perils of Freelancing, And THAT Campaign Brief List"},"content":{"rendered":"<p> <br \/>\n<\/p>\n<div itemprop=\"text\">\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/carolyn-watson-622b9712\/\" class=\"external\" target=\"_blank\">Carolyn Watson<\/a> is a Melbourne-based freelance copywriter who achieved some LinkedIn fame with her unique and original \u2018Life CV\u2019 post.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In a wide-ranging discussion, Carolyn and Ellie talked about why she wrote the post and what she was saying about the experience of being a freelancer in the current climate, what needs to happen for agencies to work well with freelancers, the fine line between copywriting and strategy and why she describes herself as a stubbornly strategy-first copywriter; the limiting impact of personalisation on great communications; the threat, effect and opportunity of AI in copywriting; the effect of world pain on advertising industry pain; and her feminist perspective on the recent Campaign Brief Creatives list.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>You can listen to the podcast here:<\/p>\n<div>\n<div>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https:\/\/www.trinityp3.com\/podcasts\/life-cv-the-joys-and-perils-of-freelancing-and-that-campaign-brief-list\/about:blank\" width=\"100%\" height=\"166\" frameborder=\"no\" scrolling=\"no\" data-rocket-lazyload=\"fitvidscompatible\" data-lazy-src=\"https:\/\/w.soundcloud.com\/player\/?url=https%3A\/\/api.soundcloud.com\/tracks\/1972125311&amp;color=%23ff5500&amp;auto_play=false&amp;hide_related=false&amp;show_comments=true&amp;show_user=true&amp;show_reposts=false&amp;show_teaser=true\"><\/iframe><noscript><iframe loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https:\/\/w.soundcloud.com\/player\/?url=https%3A\/\/api.soundcloud.com\/tracks\/1972125311&amp;color=%23ff5500&amp;auto_play=false&amp;hide_related=false&amp;show_comments=true&amp;show_user=true&amp;show_reposts=false&amp;show_teaser=true\" width=\"100%\" height=\"166\" frameborder=\"no\" scrolling=\"no\"><\/iframe><\/noscript><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<p>Follow Managing Marketing on\u00a0<a class=\"external\" href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/managing-marketing\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\">Soundcloud<\/a>,\u00a0<a class=\"external\" href=\"https:\/\/managingmarketing.podbean.com\/\" rel=\"noopener\" target=\"_blank\">Podbean,<\/a>\u00a0<a class=\"external\" href=\"https:\/\/tunein.com\/podcasts\/Business--Economics-Podcasts\/Managing-Marketing-p1275737\/\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\">TuneIn<\/a>,\u00a0<a class=\"external\" href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/75mJ4Gt6MWzFWvmd3A64XW\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\">Stitcher,<\/a>\u00a0<a class=\"external\" href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/75mJ4Gt6MWzFWvmd3A64XW\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\">Spotify,<\/a>\u00a0<a class=\"external\" href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/au\/podcast\/managing-marketing\/id1018735190\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\">Apple Podcast<\/a>\u00a0and\u00a0<a class=\"external\" href=\"https:\/\/music.amazon.com\/podcasts\/5e7b205c-81c9-44e0-aa1d-d2ce504c6048%E2%80%8B\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\">Amazon Podcasts.<\/a><\/p>\n<h3\/>\n<h3 style=\"text-align: center;\">For me, the television shows were just the things that pushed the ad breaks apart. When I was a kid, ads were really fun and entertaining and sometimes better than the show I was watching.<\/h3>\n<h3\/>\n<h3>Transcription:<\/h3>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Hello, my name is Ellie Angell, and welcome to Managing Marketing, a podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media, and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners.<\/p>\n<p>And remember, if you are enjoying these podcasts, please either like, review, or share this episode to help spread the words of wisdom from our guests each week.<\/p>\n<p>Now, today, I\u2019m joined by Carolyn Watson, who describes herself as a stubbornly strategy-first copywriter for hire, which I love, and who is also, the co-founder of a new consultancy, Strange Cattle, something that we\u2019ll no doubt discuss in the next half an hour or so.<\/p>\n<p>But welcome, Carolyn, and thanks so much for joining me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Thank you so much for having me. I\u2019m delighted to be here.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>You\u2019re more than welcome. Now, I want to start, because we haven\u2019t known each other long.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>No.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>The story of how we sort of met each other. It was only recently that you wrote what I thought was a brilliant LinkedIn post, which I\u2019m referring to is your life CV, which kind of went a bit viral on the platform. And it was really powerful. And to me, it was making more than one point about our industry.<\/p>\n<p>And for those of you who haven\u2019t seen Carolyn\u2019s post, she writes this brilliant human CV of herself, of her life, and the things that she\u2019s been through in her life to make the point that really only human beings can write that stuff and copywriting is something that should be valued.<\/p>\n<p>Have I got that right? I mean, talk to me about why you wrote the post.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>You have, but I think so much of the time with creative work, we do something on instinct and then think about later why it worked.<\/p>\n<p>So, really that was something I wrote at about one o\u2019clock in the morning. I\u2019m lying in bed and I don\u2019t know what happened. I was probably close to a dream state or something, and this thing just tumbled out of me.<\/p>\n<p>And when I read it back in the morning, I thought, that\u2019s something I need to share. And then right at the end, ended up adding that line about, this is my curriculum vitae. I studied Latin in high school. So, I love words and their Latin roots, et cetera. And I realized that that meant the course of my life.<\/p>\n<p>And that\u2019s what I\u2019d written was this river of experiences. And I mean, when we are hiring for creative roles or any role, it\u2019s really easy to reduce people to a set of data points.<\/p>\n<p>I mean, now, with AI being involved in recruitment, et cetera, it\u2019s going to be looking for keywords and not one key word in my post would be picked up as something that it was looking for.<\/p>\n<p>And yet, those are the experiences that make me who I am. If you took any one of them out, I would be different. So, they\u2019re the things that would make me valuable and human and able to look at a brief and think, \u201cWhat would a human do?\u201d That\u2019s really the sum of it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Well, it certainly highlights your ability to write.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Because I mean, I do a bit of writing myself, but I was just blown away by just the way it has been written. I\u2019m even more impressed when you say it was just a kind of, \u201cI was in a fugue state at one o\u2019clock in the morning. It just came out.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah, true. It was really just, I was in a state of flow, which anyone creative understands.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah, indeed. When you get into that zone, it\u2019s-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Just comes together. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>How has AI \u2026 what\u2019s your perspective on AI? Let\u2019s talk a bit more about that, because as a copywriter at heart, it does affect you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah. I mean, I see people panicking and I\u2019m not someone who\u2019s like, \u201cYay,\u201d about AI, but I also, think it\u2019s a baby. Like we can totally outrun this thing at this point.<\/p>\n<p>The point being that I think that we really do need to cling to the idea that I would like AI to drive a robot back to vacuum my floor so that I have time to write rather than it write so that I have time to vacuum my floor. And I think we just need to keep hold of that.<\/p>\n<p>Also, and I know I\u2019m going to sound a lot like I think it was Plato that got really upset about pencils, but I just think that it\u2019s the memory and the thinking. We don\u2019t want our brains to atrophy. There is something we need to keep thinking.<\/p>\n<p>We need to make sure that we are not resorting to something because it\u2019s easy. I don\u2019t think people are doing that yet, necessarily. I mean, there\u2019s always been, and there will always be, pardon my French, but crap work. And those that want to buy crap work by pushing a button, having AI write it, they\u2019re welcome to have that.<\/p>\n<p>But that\u2019s not going to work for every business that really wants to cut through and have a brand story. I mean, I\u2019ve tried using AI to help me. I know that there are people that swear they\u2019re getting great results on strategy and things like that.<\/p>\n<p>Personally, I haven\u2019t cracked that. I feel like if you are getting great results strategy wise from AI, you\u2019ve probably already cracked the brief. And that\u2019s why you\u2019re able to do it rather than it\u2019s cracked it for you. That\u2019s my perspective. But I\u2019m not worried at this point, I have to say.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I love the concept. And I\u2019ve seen that concept before that it\u2019s about helping you to vacuum your floor, not the other way around.<\/p>\n<p>It feels to me like it\u2019s a \u2014 I mean, marketing\u2019s obsessed with bright, shiny new things. But this does feel like more than that. It feels like a bit like the dawning of the internet again, but where it\u2019s like, it\u2019s here to stay.<\/p>\n<p>But to your point, it\u2019s how we choose to adapt to that and how we choose to actually utilize it, as opposed to just rushing to press the button.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>It hasn\u2019t grown up yet. We don\u2019t know what the future case uses will be at this point. A big value of mine is compassion. My only real concern at this point is that we\u2019re feeding this baby on the internet, which is hardly the best example of humanity. We\u2019re feeding it this constant stream of everything. And I just think it\u2019s risky.<\/p>\n<p>But then again, who gets to decide what is good content?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Of course. And good content is a relative concept. Like you say, I mean, some people are quite happy pressing a button, getting what we would think of as crap content but it\u2019s working for them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah. Well, what makes it good?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>What makes it good? We\u2019re getting all philosophical.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I know.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>We\u2019re going to get off the topic here a little bit, but look, it really is interesting. I think a lot of people do feel under threat. A lot of people feel, oh my God, I can\u2019t keep up with this.<\/p>\n<p>I kind of like your confidence in what you\u2019re saying. I do like your confidence. And I like the confidence in your post in the My Life CV. It kind of, yeah, only a human could write this.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>And the one thing it will never be able to do is be human. There are so many examples of human \u2026 I mean, I hate when people say the word insights because there are so very few insights for real, but interesting nuggets of information.<\/p>\n<p>I mean, I know this is getting way off topic, but for my purposes, I can\u2019t have chips in the house. Because if I buy chips on Sunday, they\u2019ll be gone by Monday. So, I call chips in my house Monday chips. You can\u2019t come up with that if you\u2019re an AI person, but you could probably run a campaign on that little interesting nugget of information.<\/p>\n<p>And what makes it relevant is not that specific example, but the emotion that it invokes in another person. Oh, I\u2019ve been there. I\u2019ve not been able to trust myself around chips or whatever it is. And that\u2019s the stuff it just can\u2019t do. It\u2019s not capable at least yet.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>And I\u2019m with you on the chips. Don\u2019t come around my house on a Sunday, because-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Oh my gosh.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Actually do, because [crosstalk 00:07:36].<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ll get rid of them. I\u2019ll save you from yourself.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>No, absolutely. Okay. So, I mean we are getting a bit off topic there, but it is a really interesting conversation and it does link to strategic thought. And I\u2019ll try not to use the word insights. It\u2019s a word that is often misused. Very true.<\/p>\n<p>But I don\u2019t think I\u2019ve ever seen someone describe themselves as a strategy-first copywriter. And tell me, what\u2019s your extended definition of that? How have you applied that over the years? And also, I\u2019m interested to hear about Strange Cattle in that context.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Cool. Well, yeah, I have to be really careful to make agency people really understand I realize and understand I\u2019m not a strategist because I understand that\u2019s a very specific, very important role within agency culture.<\/p>\n<p>The difficulty for a copywriter like myself, who works primarily as a freelancer, is that I\u2019ve often found myself working with businesses, particularly big, but small B2B businesses that don\u2019t have a marketing department. And if they do, it\u2019s the office manager that posts the social posts.<\/p>\n<p>And there\u2019s just really nobody there to make that link between long term versus short term. They\u2019re very sales driven. They\u2019re looking at a quarter results rather than building a brand.<\/p>\n<p>So, often they\u2019ll come to me for a tactic, like, they\u2019ll say, \u201cOh, we want a website. We want a brochure. We want a trade show booth idea,\u201d whatever it is.<\/p>\n<p>And I\u2019ve kind of got to get them to go, \u201cOkay, let\u2019s just zoom out. What do you need people to believe about your business? And how can we make that stand out in the market?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And so often the USP has been, \u201cGreat product, excellent service.\u201d It\u2019s like no one wants a bad product or shitty service. This is not a position that you\u2019ve got here.<\/p>\n<p>For me, a position should always have an equally attractive opposite. So, that they\u2019re not there yet.<\/p>\n<p>So, I\u2019ve had to actually convince them to go back to the beginning and say, \u201cLet\u2019s start over a fresh sheet of paper. Who are you?\u201d And then let\u2019s get that to filter down because a good idea will express itself anyway. As a website, as a social post, as something under the cap of a bottle, whatever it is.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ve seen ads on cricket as armpits for Rexona. Like you can put it anywhere. But you have to have that something for people to hang onto.<\/p>\n<p>Because brands help people buy, they help them make decisions. They de-risk purchases. They protect businesses against price sensitivity. You need to have one, even if you\u2019re a B2B brand. So, that\u2019s sort of been my experience often as when I\u2019m working.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>But it sounds like when the marketing department\u2019s not there or the agency\u2019s not there, you are fulfilling essentially a strategist role. I mean, you started by saying I\u2019m not a strategist but then you went on to just-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I suppose. It\u2019s hopefully a confidence issue. I just don\u2019t want them to think I\u2019m getting above myself. But yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>No, that is actually a really interesting thing because I wanted to talk to you as a freelancer and as a copywriter in this industry. And my view of it is that both freelancers and copywriters are often treated quite negatively in this industry. I don\u2019t know whether that\u2019s your perception or not, but it is a real skill.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah. It\u2019s an interesting place to find yourself in. I mean, mine was born of necessity. I find it very difficult to engage in the workplace in a very full-time, bumps in seats kind of a way. So, that\u2019s why I\u2019ve done it.<\/p>\n<p>But I think it can make me seem difficult to work with because I insist on choosing my hours or can\u2019t make it to a particular meeting, et cetera. That\u2019s on me. I mean, there are plenty of freelancers who are prepared to and able to do that. But you\u2019ll never really be part of the team in an agency environment, which is, you can understand that.<\/p>\n<p>But something I think is really important to the creative process is collaboration. And collaboration is really different from cooperation. And it\u2019s hard to get that collaboration relationship when you\u2019re a freelancer.<\/p>\n<p>Unless, I mean, things are always about conditions. And if someone can create the right conditions for that to happen, it doesn\u2019t really matter if it\u2019s on Zoom or if it\u2019s in-person, or if you\u2019re part of the team regularly or not. That\u2019s cultural, there\u2019s a whole lot of factors at play there.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>And talk to me about Strange Cattle. We might as well get \u2026 this podcast is not about getting the plugin, but I just love the name. Talk to me about Strange Cattle.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Oh, it\u2019s very lovely thing to say. Well, Strange Cattle\u2019s something my dad always says about humans. It\u2019s like always strange cattle.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Oh, okay, great.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>And basically, the idea that we\u2019re all part of a similar \u2014 we\u2019re part of the herd in the sense that we\u2019re all humans, but we\u2019re all different. And I think that\u2019s something that \u2026<\/p>\n<p>So, I\u2019ve created this consultancy with my partner in the US, David Moore. And we\u2019ve tried and worked in other ways before. We had Kingswood &amp; Palmerston previously, but we decided to refocus and rebrand because what we\u2019re doing now, so different from K&amp;P that it\u2019s like, \u201cYeah, I think we just need to shelve that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So, Strange Cattle\u2019s going to be very much more about basing things in human truths, which I know everyone says. But also, taking things offline, because I think there\u2019s so many people focused in the online space, but what if you could be the one person that made someone look up from their phone?<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s all this space out there. And it\u2019s not to say that it\u2019s not driving digital. It\u2019s kind of like throwing rocket fuel on your digital strategy, because I think digital\u2019s been so very focused on one-on-one and personalized things.<\/p>\n<p>Which I think if you understand how advertising works, you start to go, \u201cThat\u2019s very limited.\u201d I think we\u2019ve missed fire there in some ways as an industry focusing so hard on that.<\/p>\n<p>What we really need to do is create niche fame for our clients, even smaller ones. They can invest in broader media, offline things, more traditional kind of approaches.<\/p>\n<p>They\u2019re still valuable, and yet people aren\u2019t really understanding why and how they can be showing up in that way. So, that\u2019s kind of going to be the focus and very much strategy driven of course, because that\u2019s my thing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Of course, well, that\u2019s your favorite words. No, look, I hear that entirely. I mean, there\u2019s a massive debate in the industry about that and digital personalization from a media dollars, a media buying perspective, as well as from a creative perspective or not a creative perspective.<\/p>\n<p>And it\u2019s interesting that some of the earliest applications of AI have been dynamically driven advertising. Written advertising has come from that exact kind of, we\u2019re going to make it personal, we\u2019re going to make it one to one. And people have seen on its own, it doesn\u2019t work. It just doesn\u2019t work.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>It can\u2019t. I mean, if I went outside right now, and I had something I wanted to tell a whole bunch of people, I would not go up and talk to everyone, tap everyone on the shoulder one by one, and tell them.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019d find a high spot and I\u2019d shout out to the masses and not care if there were people hearing it that didn\u2019t need to hear it. It\u2019s like they will self-select. But I think it\u2019s got to be more about relevance rather than personalization going forward.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Let\u2019s talk a bit about the culture of the industry. We were just having a chat offline before. I won\u2019t reveal some of the things we were talking about, but I\u2019ve already said I was interested to talk to you as a copywriter, and as a strategist, and as a freelancer.<\/p>\n<p>And I know this is happening, but it is very relevant right now, is that I want to talk to you as a woman in this industry with the ..<\/p>\n<p>This thing that has happened just the other day with the creative list from campaign being entirely men and the foray that\u2019s caused, rightly so, in this industry. I mean, for me, that was a kind of, what were you thinking moment? But it\u2019s caused a foray.<\/p>\n<p>But we also, seem to be fighting fires on a number of fronts. We talked about AI eating away at human creativity or how that might be managed. Challenges in the way freelance talent is treated.<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s ageism, there\u2019s the ever-persistent stain of misogyny, I think is the way I would describe it. We\u2019re seeing that come through. And the frustratingly slow process of enabling a truly diverse workforce to exist and thrive. And I count myself as a part of that diverse cohort.<\/p>\n<p>Do you think that there is a cultural crisis? Is that too strong a term? Is it just something that we haven\u2019t solved and we just need to keep working on? Or are you frustrated as well?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Oh, of course, I\u2019m frustrated on so many levels. I think it\u2019s kind of like when someone\u2019s really freaking grumpy and you sort of stop making excuses for them, realize they\u2019re just a grumpy person.<\/p>\n<p>But I mean, it was funny because Zoe Scaman, and I don\u2019t know if you know her. She released quite recently, almost in concert with this campaign incident about mothers in the industry and how hard it is for women to stay in the industry once \u2014 and it\u2019s not even really just once their mothers.<\/p>\n<p>I mean, women just happen to be the people that take on family life and all the pressures that come with that, regardless of what your family looks like. And it continues as well as you end up caring for aging parents, et cetera, et cetera.<\/p>\n<p>So, you just don\u2019t see women at those higher levels of management and leadership in that world, or really a lot of other industries as well.<\/p>\n<p>But it\u2019s just not compatible of life to have to be up in the office to all hours or come in on weekends and all that sort of stuff. Which that\u2019s the myth of shy at day and night. And if you don\u2019t come in on the week on Saturday, don\u2019t come in on Sunday and all that stuff. It\u2019s just not compatible with the reality of most women\u2019s experience.<\/p>\n<p>And so, it\u2019s understandable in a way how it ends up there, but it\u2019s not okay. And is it a crisis? I think we\u2019re just paying more attention to these things. I mean, I could be wrong here, but I feel like COVID really kicked the scab off a lot of issues.<\/p>\n<p>We started to see Black Lives Matter happened at a similar time, and I think that really started us thinking and looking and talking about things more. So, it\u2019s easy to feel like these things are worse, but I think it\u2019s more that we\u2019re just maybe looking at them for the first time.<\/p>\n<p>And even so, I think there\u2019s still women that would sit me down and say well, we\u2019re not really talking about it either. Like we\u2019re not talking about it enough. And when we do, I think we\u2019re admiring the problem more than really coming up with ways to solve it, which is a shame.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah. I mean, I think with this particular thing in campaign, it\u2019s resonated around not just the lack of opportunity or that there aren\u2019t enough women in these places, but there\u2019s a little lack of recognition for the women that are there.<\/p>\n<p>And there\u2019s been a couple of comments. Jane Caro is one of them on LinkedIn who said, \u201cLook, I was talking about this 30 years ago.\u201d And this sort of snail\u2019s pace of adaptability. I mean, instead this thing being adaptable, but it just seems to be \u2026 you\u2019re probably right, it\u2019s not a crisis as such, but these things still happening in 2024.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s appalling.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>It just blows me away.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah. But I guess the problem is that the people that get to make the decisions, it\u2019s not a problem for. So, unfortunately, they\u2019re not going to get up and move off their own butt.<\/p>\n<p>And the fact is that businesses are psychopaths like the entity of a business. It\u2019s really only interested in its own success. And I think there\u2019s a misunderstanding and a misperception that \u2026 and this is probably true for ageism as well. There\u2019s a never-ending supply of young people coming into the industry.<\/p>\n<p>And if you can\u2019t be in a seat, or if you\u2019re too expensive to pay because you\u2019ve sort of become so experience, et cetera, you can command that higher rate of pay, you are infinitely replaceable.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Ageism is a massive issue, and one that\u2019s started a backlash about ageism as well in the industry. The other thing that strikes me about ageism is that the younger people coming through and all due respect to them, and they\u2019re brilliant young people coming through-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>No shade at all.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Much more au fait with AI, much more au fait with those tools, probably using them more. What human element are you losing in the experience of age in the context of AI? Is a question mark and something that worries me a bit, honestly.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah, no, it is. I think that these issues also \u2026 one thing I was thinking about in the drive on my way here was the fact that it forces a lot of us to build our own table. That\u2019s what I felt I\u2019ve had to do for myself. If no one\u2019s going to offer me a seat, build my own table out of scrap wood, et cetera.<\/p>\n<p>But the problem with that then is that even for yourself, you kind of view that table as a bit crap because it\u2019s not going to be the same as some French polished, beautiful thing that\u2019s been around for centuries or whatever. It\u2019s really hard to view that success.<\/p>\n<p>I mean, it\u2019s a huge thing to do to build your own business, to build your own table. And yet we look at that and go, \u201cYeah, but I really wanted to sit at that table.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Oh, look, I mean, take the table and analogy is a good one. Also, I mean, I\u2019ve got a lot of reclaimed furniture in my own place. It\u2019s reclaimed wood. And I love its imperfections. I love its uniqueness. I love the fact it\u2019s not highly polished. And I love the fact that it still does its job. It just does it a different way. And I\u2019m stretching the analogy to break, but that\u2019s-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>No, but I get it, it\u2019s really an attitude that we have towards, or that I\u2019ve clearly got towards build my own thing. And still having this grief and not having participated in that old school agency experience.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>But I mean, you\u2019ve worked with agencies and we did talk a little bit about it, but I\u2019d really like to unpack a little bit more to focus on the advertising and ad agency bit for a sec. Because I know that you do more than that.<\/p>\n<p>But what have you seen that represents the best and worst practices in how you have been engaged in the creative process as a copywriter?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah, it\u2019s interesting. I think it really does, again, harp back to that cooperation versus collaboration thing. I mean, so often as, I weirdly end up working with a lot of overseas agencies, so there\u2019s no way for me to go into the office unfortunately. Feel free though if you want to bring me over.<\/p>\n<p>I work with an agency in UK. I work one with California. And it\u2019s very much a relay race. Like they pass me something.<\/p>\n<p>And just the few occasions where I\u2019ve gotten to work with say, an art director and you\u2019re passing that idea back and forth and each of you\u2019re making it better, that\u2019s a very different experience from being given essentially a box to fill. Whether it\u2019s like, write this web copy, write this ad.<\/p>\n<p>So, often I\u2019ve been given a brief where it talks about the size of the banner. It\u2019s like, \u201cDo you know what a brief is?\u201d That\u2019s crazy. But they\u2019ve been really good.<\/p>\n<p>I think the good practices that I\u2019ve seen particularly impressed me was the one in the UK that I\u2019ve done some work with is great at skilling up the person that\u2019s going to have to sell the idea up, recognizing that it\u2019s often not the decision maker, which is kind of weird in a way.<\/p>\n<p>I think one thing I got to chat to Margie Reid think about recently, and I was really impressed with the fact that they let their creatives near the client meetings. And I just think that\u2019s really different and unusual.<\/p>\n<p>And I get it. But what it does is encourage that collaboration between the account person, and the creative, and the client. Everyone knows what the goal is. I mean, they are diametrically opposed in a way, the goals of each department.<\/p>\n<p>I mean, the creative person is trying to create something for the audience, the account manager\u2019s trying to create something for the client. So, you trying to get everybody on the same page is unusual, but like why aren\u2019t we doing it that way?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Well, Margie and Adam, those guys have been very upfront about that. And taking a different approach. And I\u2019ve seen their work and seen them in pictures and stuff like that.<\/p>\n<p>And you are right, it does make for better process. It costs more money to have more people in meetings. That\u2019s the sad issue.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Right. That\u2019s the setback.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>And from a client perspective. Right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>And not all agencies feel comfortable putting their, in quotes, creatives. And not all account leaders do either because they feel it\u2019s on their turf. And you\u2019re getting into all this stuff that has been in agencies forever.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah, absolutely get that. I do think that billing, like the way we bill for time and trade time for money is an issue in the industry. And you\u2019re seeing people trying out new models for that. And there\u2019s a lot to be learned about different pricing, pricing for value.<\/p>\n<p>Blair Enns does some great work around how agencies could consider pricing things differently. And I think it would be great if more agencies looked into his stuff. I just think it giving people more ways and different ways of working with you freeze up the idea of who can be in a meeting, or-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>TrinityP3 has been a proponent of this for a long time. Particularly output based pricing, which takes the emphasis away from input of hours and towards the value of what you\u2019re creating.<\/p>\n<p>And means that the agency can spend one hour or a thousand hours on it, but the value of the output is the same. And that immediately removes, although, well, we\u2019ve got to charge you 30 more hours for the ECD sitting in this meeting.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Absolutely. I mean, an idea can be come up within 15 minutes in the first meeting, or it can take forever.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Or it can take forever.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>And why should you be penalized because you\u2019ve had that inspiration? And also, what\u2019s an idea worth? That\u2019s just-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s right, what\u2019s an idea worth? But we also, take, I mean, there\u2019s a devaluing and then there\u2019s a sort of a lack of objectivity with cost input base because you\u2019re essentially paying \u2014 on an hours in project basis, the agency is essentially incentivized to be inefficient because the more hours they bill, the more money they make.<\/p>\n<p>Which is a fundamentally flawed when you think about it, but we\u2019ve been doing it forever. I mean, it\u2019s the way it\u2019s always been.<\/p>\n<p>But yeah, I\u2019m certainly with you and we\u2019ve written articles and posts and stuff about this for years and years. Clients are often very at high bound. And these things can be hard to implement, and I think a lot of the time it gets put into the too hot basket, which is a shame.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah, it is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>But I\u2019m definitely with you on that. And I mean, it is kind of a segue, current state of advertising in Australia. I\u2019ve read a lot of your posts now. I spied on you a bit on LinkedIn. And I love you. You strike me as both forthright and you\u2019re pretty observant as well.<\/p>\n<p>And everything we\u2019ve talked about sort of does talk to the current state of advertising in Australia. What needs to change? I mean, just from a pure creativity point of view-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>From a creativity point of view, I think-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>How strong is what you see coming out right now?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah. I think it\u2019s pretty much everything we\u2019ve spoken to now.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah, probably or maybe we just \u2026 yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I think time becomes a real issue for people. I mean, the more work you can get through the door, the more you can \u2026 and agencies operate on such skinny margins as well, that high volume of work, but it reduces the time that creative is able to spend working on an idea. That\u2019s an issue.<\/p>\n<p>I think there\u2019s a lot of fear, and I don\u2019t know that this is Australian specific, but I think fear has become such a scourge in business generally. It\u2019s the chewing gum that is gummy up the wheel of progress in so many ways.<\/p>\n<p>And there\u2019s just this reticence to take a risk in a creative sense. I\u2019ve read a lot recently, I\u2019ve become interested in the idea of transcendental experiences, which sounds very highfalutin but we are hardwired as humans to seek those out. Things that are just outside our comfort zone.<\/p>\n<p>And I think a lot of ads now, well, there\u2019s two things really. People think that no one\u2019s going to spend time to solve the \u2014 you give someone a tiny puzzle, take them right up into the edge and then let them take that last leap.<\/p>\n<p>And they don\u2019t trust readers to do that because they think of it being on a phone, and they think of it in the scroll. And I\u2019m sure that that\u2019s because we are no longer thinking of it as a wider campaign.<\/p>\n<p>I mean, in an ideal world, that person\u2019s seen a social post, they\u2019ve seen a digital ad, they\u2019ve seen a billboard, they\u2019ve heard a radio ad. It\u2019s part of a landscape of things. And we\u2019re hopefully giving them many opportunities to grasp that little puzzle, but we don\u2019t think of it that way anymore.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s very much an anxiety about people don\u2019t read and people won\u2019t get it. And so often you end up with a line in an ad that reads like the line from the strategy brief, because we just haven\u2019t pushed past that, pardon me, but mediocrity of just the say it straight. We haven\u2019t reached past that to say great.<\/p>\n<p>And I think I go on about this all the time, but I think advertising needs to reclaim its status as entertainment. Because when I was a kid \u2014 and I\u2019ve grown up loving ads, I know that sounds really nerdy.<\/p>\n<p>But for me, the television shows were just the things that pushed the ad breaks apart. When I was a kid, ads were really fun and entertaining and sometimes better than the show I was watching. You definitely would not say that anymore. I mean, they give us the option to skip them.<\/p>\n<p>We so don\u2019t value this thing that we do, this thing that we make, we give people the option to go, \u201cI don\u2019t want to participate in that. Skip.\u201d I just think that sends a real message to people about ads generally.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I think there\u2019s all sorts of things wrapped up in that. Lack of confidence in this industry and the creativity. That\u2019s a really interesting concept. We sort of have become slaves to the convoluted lives of the consumer to a certain extent, options to skip. And I think it says a lot to how much better TV is now, than it was.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I think ads don\u2019t have a hard time to keep up with just how good TV \u2014 well, some TV has become.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah. You\u2019re not wrong.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>But you\u2019re not wrong either. Ads were memorable, ads were entertaining, ads were pieces of true content as opposed to as you say, sort of lines coming strategy brief. And that has a lot to do with courage of the client.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Oh, definitely, yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>And it has a lot to do with creatives who just know they\u2019re on a hiding to nothing by doing something seriously out there and who just conform to the norm. Which is challenge. I\u2019m struggling to think of really stand out work in that regard in this-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah. I think I\u2019m not anti-data by any stretch, but I think we also, need to come wind that back and get to a place where we realize data tells us what has happened. It can\u2019t tell us what\u2019s possible.<\/p>\n<p>And when we can measure what we think is everything, we end up relying on the things we can measure instead of really remembering there are things that are really important that we can\u2019t. And I mean, I\u2019m not remotely anti data. I think it\u2019s a great place to start from a strategy point of view. I just don\u2019t think it\u2019s everything.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>No, no. Well, the reason I smiled there as you was saying it, is I was kind of thinking about the eye word there, the insight. The lack of lots of facts, no insights that come out of that process, I think is another challenge. But we could be talking about this all day.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I know, I know.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Look, it\u2019s not a solvable thing immediately, but I think a lot of the things you touch on, talk to us sort of almost like a cultural shift in the industry to-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I think so.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>\u2026 change the way we think and believe in ourselves and in the advertising space.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I think we\u2019re in a lot of pain right now, because I think the world\u2019s in a lot of pain. Generally, like we we\u2019re in a state of change and change is always really uncomfortable, but it\u2019s that discomfort that\u2019s going to make us change. So, it kind of makes me hopeful.<\/p>\n<p>And I do think that hang on to hope and being inspired is going to become really, really important because when we lack hope, we stop working together.<\/p>\n<p>And I think we need to bring back that sort of, we\u2019re all one team, like advertising as an industry doesn\u2019t need to be at odds with itself. It can start to work as a team, but that really does take having that sense of hope that things can change.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Because you\u2019re right. And I see that particularly with the macro issues facing the world. We are in a crisis.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>We\u2019re in a lot of pain right now.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>We\u2019re in a lot of pain as a world. And economic pain is included in that. I mean, my clients are all marketers and I see it a lot. I see the pain, I see the hesitation, I see the fear. Just a basic fear of keeping their jobs. I see the lack of courage, understandably so, that implies.<\/p>\n<p>I see CEOs getting more and more involved in decisions that they really shouldn\u2019t be involved in. And there\u2019s a sort of, it has echoes of trust and insecurity on the part of the c-suite as well as the marketing leads and all of that impacts what agency can do. Talking just about advertising, all of that, and marketing more broadly, all of that impacts.<\/p>\n<p>But I do want to finish on hope because why not?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Hope is the place to go.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Neither of us are Barrack Obama, but he used that word pretty well. I think you\u2019re right. The hope is lacking right now. That\u2019s not to say we can\u2019t get it back though.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Absolutely, yeah. I think we just need to focus on inspiring each other and coming together to do what we love. I mean, it\u2019s not like we are going down minds here, like making ads, it\u2019s meant to be fun.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>No, that\u2019s right. We\u2019re not saving babies. Correct. We\u2019re not neurosurgeons. And look, I keep on trying to finish this discussion and then we go on another tangent, but it is true.<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s something in that sort of, we need to take ourselves seriously but we also, need to wear that lightly. I think we do have that sort of being at war, as you say, with ourselves half the time.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah. It\u2019s slowing us down, it\u2019s sucking us changing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Just like we maybe just need to just take a bit of a step back and realize that \u2014 and remember, not realize, remember that we\u2019re not down minds and-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Yeah. The best creative comes out of a state of play. We need to get back to a place where it\u2019s playful to be at work doing this work.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Well, I hope that you can make all of those positive influences with the work that you do. And I wish you every success with Strange Cattle.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>It is been a great conversation. I\u2019ve really enjoyed talking to you about all these things, and so thank you so much again for coming on.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Carolyn:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Thank you for having me. It\u2019s an honor and a pleasure and a delight.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Carolyn Watson is a Melbourne-based freelance copywriter who achieved some LinkedIn fame with her unique and original \u2018Life CV\u2019 post.\u00a0 In a wide-ranging discussion, Carolyn and Ellie talked about why she wrote the post and what she was saying about the experience of being a freelancer in the current climate, what needs to happen for [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":40763,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[98],"tags":[13503,25735,13451,3333,4249,25734],"dealstore":[],"offerexpiration":[],"class_list":["post-40762","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-marketing","tag-campaign","tag-freelancing","tag-joys","tag-life","tag-list","tag-perils"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v26.4 - 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