{"id":243138,"date":"2025-05-15T12:11:39","date_gmt":"2025-05-15T12:11:39","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/peraltafinancing.com\/aerospace\/the-joys-of-discovering-the-roman-underground-from-the-colosseum-to-whats-beneath-the-trevi-foundation\/"},"modified":"2025-05-15T12:11:39","modified_gmt":"2025-05-15T12:11:39","slug":"the-joys-of-discovering-the-roman-underground-from-the-colosseum-to-whats-beneath-the-trevi-foundation","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?p=243138","title":{"rendered":"The Joys of Discovering the Roman Underground, From the Colosseum to What\u2019s Beneath the Trevi Foundation"},"content":{"rendered":"<p> <br \/>\n<\/p>\n<div data-article-body=\"\">\n<div class=\"article-special-wrap\">\n<div class=\"article-special\">\n<div class=\"article-special-text\">\n<p class=\"hed\">There&#8217;s More to That<\/p>\n<p class=\"dek\">A <i>Smithsonian<\/i> magazine special report<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<header class=\"article-header\">\n<h2 class=\"tagline article-tagline\" itemprop=\"description\">To escape the crowds of the Eternal City, head below ground and enter a portal into Rome\u2019s past<\/h2>\n<div class=\"article-line\">\n<section class=\"author-box by-line single-author\">\n<div class=\"author-headshot travel\">\n          <img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/th-thumbnailer.cdn-si-edu.com\/FPwU1yCRg5gmFNEk2ePEVKPpKek=\/fit-in\/160x80\/filters:no_upscale()\/https:\/\/tf-cmsv2-smithsonianmag-media.s3.amazonaws.com\/accounts\/headshot\/adsheadshotcolor-edit.png\" alt=\"Ari Daniel\" class=\"headshot\"\/>\n        <\/div>\n<div class=\"author-text\">\n<p class=\"author\" itemprop=\"author\">\n<p>          <a href=\"https:\/\/www.smithsonianmag.com\/author\/ari-daniel\/\">Ari Daniel<\/a><\/p>\n<p>            &#8211; <span class=\"author-short-bio\">Host, &#8220;There&#8217;s More to That&#8221;<\/span><\/p>\n<p>      <time class=\"pub-date\" itemprop=\"datePublished\" data-pubdate=\"May 15, 2025, 7:30 a.m.\">May 15, 2025 7:30 a.m.<\/time><\/p><\/div>\n<\/section><\/div>\n<\/header>\n<figure class=\"article-image lead-article-image\">\n<picture class=\"responsive-image\"><source media=\"(max-width: 600px)\" srcset=\"https:\/\/th-thumbnailer.cdn-si-edu.com\/1boWjqlWI-3RVontXr8cJb5QTHc=\/600x400\/https:\/\/tf-cmsv2-smithsonianmag-media.s3.amazonaws.com\/filer_public\/f0\/2d\/f02d7f82-0d48-4519-8611-b63c84801019\/smithmag-podcast-s03-ep09-romanarchaeology-article.jpg\" width=\"600\" height=\"400\"><source media=\"(max-width: 768px)\" srcset=\"https:\/\/th-thumbnailer.cdn-si-edu.com\/GCLMFVWQLupAKfQ8njV8mTBLm3g=\/768x512\/https:\/\/tf-cmsv2-smithsonianmag-media.s3.amazonaws.com\/filer_public\/f0\/2d\/f02d7f82-0d48-4519-8611-b63c84801019\/smithmag-podcast-s03-ep09-romanarchaeology-article.jpg\" width=\"768\" height=\"512\"><source media=\"(max-width: 1000px)\" srcset=\"https:\/\/th-thumbnailer.cdn-si-edu.com\/GCLMFVWQLupAKfQ8njV8mTBLm3g=\/768x512\/https:\/\/tf-cmsv2-smithsonianmag-media.s3.amazonaws.com\/filer_public\/f0\/2d\/f02d7f82-0d48-4519-8611-b63c84801019\/smithmag-podcast-s03-ep09-romanarchaeology-article.jpg, https:\/\/th-thumbnailer.cdn-si-edu.com\/S_plKRv8A6kEKArDHtKo7YacsjU=\/1026x684\/https:\/\/tf-cmsv2-smithsonianmag-media.s3.amazonaws.com\/filer_public\/f0\/2d\/f02d7f82-0d48-4519-8611-b63c84801019\/smithmag-podcast-s03-ep09-romanarchaeology-article.jpg 2x\" width=\"768\" height=\"512\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/th-thumbnailer.cdn-si-edu.com\/S_plKRv8A6kEKArDHtKo7YacsjU=\/1026x684\/https:\/\/tf-cmsv2-smithsonianmag-media.s3.amazonaws.com\/filer_public\/f0\/2d\/f02d7f82-0d48-4519-8611-b63c84801019\/smithmag-podcast-s03-ep09-romanarchaeology-article.jpg\" width=\"1026\" height=\"684\" alt=\"Smithmag-Podcast-S03-Ep09-RomanArchaeology-article.jpg\" itemprop=\"image\" loading=\"lazy\"\/><br \/>\n            <\/source><\/source><\/source><\/picture><figcaption class=\"caption\">\n<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n<p><em>Tourism is surging in many places around the world\u2014swarmed national parks, throngs of visitors amassing in churches and museums, and sidewalk cafes overburdened with diners. In this episode, we\u2019d like to offer a less crowded way to be a tourist: consider going underground. <\/em><\/p>\n<p><em>This summer is a Jubilee Year in Rome, so the city will be more packed than ever. But below the traffic jams and bustle of pedestrians in the streets of Rome lie its subterranean sites, which include ancient aqueducts, pagan shrines and even apartment complexes built centuries ago. While tourists pound the pavement visiting the iconic landmarks aboveground, explorers can search beneath the streets of the Eternal City for a different perspective on ancient\u2014and modern\u2014Roman life. <\/em><\/p>\n<p><em>Host Ari Daniel speaks with <\/em>Smithsonian<em> contributing writer Tony Perrottet, who wrote recently about <\/em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.smithsonianmag.com\/travel\/explore-romes-hidden-underworld-city-beneath-city-180986228\/\"><em>Rome\u2019s underworld<\/em><\/a><em>\u2014the city lurking beneath the city. And he offers numerous tips to listeners who want to explore these fascinating and tranquil sites for themselves.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><em>A transcript is below. To subscribe to \u201cThere\u2019s More to That,\u201d and to listen to past episodes about the use of <\/em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.smithsonianmag.com\/podcast\/series\/theres-more-to-that\/season-2\/how-to-use-renaissance-paintings-to-improve-the-farming-of-tomorrow\/\"><em>Italian Renaissance paintings to improve the farming of tomorrow<\/em><\/a><em>, <\/em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.smithsonianmag.com\/podcast\/series\/theres-more-to-that\/season-2\/a-field-of-dreams-built-in-an-unlikely-place-a-japanese-american-internment-camp\/\"><em>a special baseball field at a Japanese internment camp<\/em><\/a><em> and <\/em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.smithsonianmag.com\/podcast\/series\/theres-more-to-that\/season-1\/how-artificial-intelligence-is-making-2000-year-old-scrolls-readable-again\/\"><em>the use of artificial intelligence to make ancient scrolls readable again<\/em><\/a><em>, find us on <\/em><a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/theres-more-to-that\/id1694965155?ign-itscg=30200&amp;ign-itsct=podcast_box_player\"><em>Apple Podcasts<\/em><\/a><em>, <\/em><a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/4NYRCRxkYJTLjW71sqYOFv?si=08fa62c3e59d450f&amp;nd=1\"><em>Spotify<\/em><\/a><em>, <\/em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iheart.com\/\"><em>iHeartRadio<\/em><\/a><em> or wherever you get your podcasts.<\/em><\/p>\n<hr\/>\n<p>\n    <iframe loading=\"lazy\" allow=\"monetization\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https:\/\/play.prx.org\/e?ge=prx_3987_11d67b6e-8583-4301-b605-a5946015c429&amp;uf=https%3A%2F%2Fpublicfeeds.net%2Ff%2F3987%2Ffeed-rss.xml\" style=\"min-width: 300px;\" width=\"100%\"><\/iframe>\n  <\/p>\n<hr\/>\n<p><strong>Ari Daniel:<\/strong> Rome receives millions of visitors each year.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tony Perrottet:<\/strong> Every time we go, the volume of tourists doubles. The historical center gets so crowded now that even Romans have given up on going there.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel:<\/strong> This is Tony Perrottet. He <a href=\"https:\/\/www.smithsonianmag.com\/author\/tony-perrottet\/\">often writes<\/a> about his travels for <em>Smithsonian <\/em>magazine.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet:<\/strong> It\u2019s getting worse this year because it\u2019s the Jubilee Year. Every 25 years, Catholics around the world converge on Rome, so it\u2019s extra crowded.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel:<\/strong> Oh, the Jubilee signifies a religious pilgrimage?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet: <\/strong>Yeah, it\u2019s the Catholic\u2014every 25 years, the Vatican celebrates an extra 25 years since the birth of Christ, I think. And yeah, every 25 years is even more insane than usual.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel: <\/strong>Of course, this year, the passing of <a href=\"https:\/\/www.smithsonianmag.com\/smart-news\/five-ways-pope-francis-religious-leader-who-pushed-to-modernize-the-catholic-church-was-man-of-firsts-180983379\/\">Pope Francis<\/a> has brought additional crowds of pilgrims and mourners.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet: <\/strong>The last time I went, they\u2019re also doing this terrible thing where they\u2019re doing all these construction projects that are happening all at once. Really, there\u2019s these human traffic jams, so it\u2019s become quite annoying.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel:<\/strong> Locals aren\u2019t thrilled with tourist overcrowding either. That\u2019s evident in the protests that have been held across some of Europe\u2019s most popular destination cities over the past year. So if you\u2019re reluctant to spend your precious afternoon in Rome standing in line with several thousand like-minded individuals waiting to get close enough to the Trevi Fountain to toss a coin into its aquamarine waters, you\u2019re not alone. In fact, Tony spent his last trip to the Eternal City looking for places you won\u2019t find in your average travel guide. Places like the McDonald\u2019s in the Termini train station, where you can actually see remnants of the ancient Servian Wall sticking up out of the middle of the restaurant.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet:<\/strong> Rome was just built like lasagna. It\u2019s like all these layers built on top of each other, and you can pick which era you want to visit. But also, that\u2019s a slightly deceptive analogy because there\u2019s other ones where all eras exist at once. So that\u2019s why Sigmund Freud famously used Rome as a <a href=\"https:\/\/www.freud.org.uk\/schools\/resources\/freud-and-archaeology\/rome-and-the-mind\/\">metaphor<\/a> for the human memory\u2014that you can go and see something, and if you look at it one way, it\u2019s like it\u2019s a certain era of your life. You look at it another way, it\u2019s another. It\u2019s the same thing. It\u2019s the same space, but all these different things are going on.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel: <\/strong>And speaking of layers, Tony\u2019s best advice: If you really want to see Rome, you\u2019ve got to go underground. Literally, beneath the city. From <em>Smithsonian <\/em>magazine and PRX Productions, this is \u201cThere\u2019s More to That,\u201d the show where all roads lead to \u2026 stories about history, science and culture. In this episode, when in Rome, do as some Romans do and see the wonders underneath one of the most popular tourist destinations on Earth. Keep listening.<\/p>\n<hr\/>\n<p><strong>Perrottet:<\/strong> I\u2019ve always been interested in the underground things in Rome. There\u2019s churches, catacombs, there\u2019s aqueducts. And the story I did for <em>Smithsonian<\/em>, I joined this speleo-archaeological group.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel:<\/strong> Speleo-archaeology, so that\u2019s what exactly?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet: <\/strong>Speleo-archaeology is doing archaeology and speleology at once. They\u2019re going underground into tunnels, into aqueducts, into all these sort of underground places.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel:<\/strong> An aqueduct underground?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet: <\/strong>Yes. Often they were underground. The famous ones are the ones that you see the arches and they\u2019re aboveground, but most of the length was actually underground. So there were 11 aqueducts that were built in ancient times. Only one of them still works, sort of, because the Goths destroyed them after the fall of the Great Empire.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel: <\/strong>With determined planning, lucky travelers can visit this ancient working aqueduct.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet:<\/strong> The only part that\u2019s accessible is the Roman water company called Acea. They\u2019re very bureaucratic, and it took me months to get permission. So you go into the Villa Medici, which is this beautiful thing run by the French cultural institute, and there\u2019s a door. Water company guy turns up and he\u2019s like, \u201cHey, I got the key. Here we are.\u201d And you put on this plastic fisherman\u2019s overalls and the hard hat and you go down this amazing spiral staircase.<\/p>\n<p>And then you end up down there in the aqueduct, and the water is flowing along up to waist high, and it\u2019s freezing. This is the water that\u2019s come from the mountains nearby, and it ends up the water in the Fontana di Trevi, one of the most famous fountains in Rome. It\u2019s much more fun for me, more excited to go wading through the aqueduct than to go look at the Fontana di Trevi. It\u2019s like a million people there taking selfies, but it\u2019s much more exciting to go down into this ancient aqueduct that was hewn by Marcus Agrippa. So yeah, the whole thing has just this major, very exciting production.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel: <\/strong>A speleo-archaeology group helped get Tony permission to access this site. The group\u2019s name translates to \u201c<a href=\"https:\/\/www.sotterraneidiroma.it\/en\/\">Undergrounds of Rome<\/a>.\u201d It\u2019s headquartered in the center of the city and leads its own subterranean tours.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet:<\/strong> And they have a clubhouse. It\u2019s called \u201cthe cave,\u201d this labyrinth that was dug as a quarry in the first century B.C. And then in the Middle Ages, they grew mushrooms down there. It was used as bomb shelters during the Second World War, and they do tours down there. You can go visit, you can wander around. I went there. They had a pizza night down there in this thing, and we went down and had pizza and beer.<\/p>\n<p>And then they were like, \u201cOK, let\u2019s go have a look at the catacombs.\u201d It turned out that these tunnels had been built underneath Christian catacombs where people were buried for century after century. But tomb robbers had dug upward to try and find treasure, and they\u2019d built a ladder. And so you\u2019re climbing up this ladder and you climb into these catacombs, and there\u2019s bones everywhere and bits of mosaic and skulls. And we were just sitting there going like, \u201cOh, wow.\u201d After the pizza, the bones.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel: <\/strong>I see. Part one was the pizza, then you went up the ladder to look at the bones.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet: <\/strong>Yes. Pizza first, bones after, definitely. They\u2019ve got a little bar they set up called the Bat Cave. They really just love the underground.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel<\/strong>: So it\u2019s not just a place for specialist archaeologists to go exploring. They\u2019re increasingly becoming available for tourists to explore.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet: <\/strong>Yes, that\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel: <\/strong>The group\u2019s founder, Marco Placidi, started the tours in response to his own frustrations with Italy\u2019s crowds of tourists. He\u2019s not an archaeologist. He\u2019s just a weekend warrior who loves this stuff.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet: <\/strong>They started their group because he took a friend to the Vatican and it was so crowded and so annoying. And in the Vatican they wouldn\u2019t even let him take photos. He was outraged. He wanted to explore places that other people weren\u2019t going. And then he realized that there\u2019s tons of places that you can discover.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel: <\/strong>Tony says that once you know to look, you\u2019ll start to notice more and more signs of exciting adventures awaiting beneath the city streets.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet:<\/strong> If you go to Piazza Navona, which is one of the great, probably the most popular piazza in central Rome, you realize that it\u2019s actually shaped like a stadium because originally they built it over the Stadium of Domitian, and there\u2019d be runners and Olympic-style games. But if you wander around, you can see the foundations down certain gaps.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel: <\/strong>There\u2019s actually a museum some 15 feet down.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet:<\/strong> And you actually wander around the foundations of a stadium and all the things that they discovered, the statues and whatever. A lot of these things are totally accessible. Most visitors to Rome just don\u2019t think of that. There\u2019s a department store called Rinascente, very beautiful, and it\u2019s right near the Fontana di Trevi. The aqueduct that runs the Fontana di Trevi, part of it was aboveground. But it\u2019s now in the basement of this department store. And you go in there and there\u2019s the elevator there. And it\u2019s like top floor: Prada. Second floor: Gucci, Dolce &amp; Gabbana. But then it\u2019s got basement: aqueduct.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel: <\/strong>Anyone can push that button?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet: <\/strong>Yeah, yeah, it\u2019s open to the public. It was a condition of them running the department store. The city government says, \u201cOK, but you\u2019ve got to let people go see the aqueduct.\u201d You press the button, you go down there, you go down to the basement, and it\u2019s beautifully preserved. Eight arches there. There was some secondhand clothes on one side, and they had a Vespa display.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel: <\/strong>Next to the aqueducts?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet:<\/strong> Yeah, you keep coming across these things all the time.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel:<\/strong> It\u2019s interesting because you talk about the layers of history that Rome kind of builds on top of itself, and that\u2019s what you\u2019re describing in this department store because you\u2019ve got the latest layer of modern consumerism on top of a more ancient layer and right alongside it, too.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet: <\/strong>Exactly. It\u2019s just embedded in it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel: <\/strong>Yeah, it\u2019s incredible. So I\u2019m curious, why are these types of places good alternatives for people that might be looking to escape the crowds?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet: <\/strong>Well, not many people know about them, for a start. I don\u2019t really know why that is. It\u2019s just everyone\u2019s so spellbound by the Colosseum and by the Forum and whatever, they don\u2019t really think about these places. And it\u2019s a little bit of work sometimes to figure out where they are and their opening times, and it\u2019s always quite eccentric. And maybe it\u2019s me, I like secret things.<\/p>\n<p>One of my favorites, there\u2019s a lake underneath the Caelian Hill. It\u2019s very Jules Verne. It costs you like 10 bucks or something. They give you the hard hat. Tours are only in Italian. You go down there and you descend down these steps. You\u2019re shining your torch around. And that was a quarry as well, originally in the first century A.D. There\u2019s this lake down there, the water has dripped down over the centuries, and they\u2019re like, \u201cWell, you could drink this.\u201d It\u2019s like Pellegrino. It\u2019s that pure.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel: <\/strong>So how do these sites compare to places like the Colosseum or the Pantheon?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet: <\/strong>Well, I mean you\u2019ve got to see the Colosseum. It\u2019s a pretty amazing thing. And in fact, if you do go to the Colosseum, ask to go on the underground.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel:<\/strong> Go underground?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet: <\/strong>Because there\u2019s a special tour with very limited access. They excavated, finally, underneath the Colosseum was where the animals were kept and the gladiators waited. And they have elevator systems to take them up to the arena. Almost everywhere it has some sort of thing like that.<\/p>\n<p>Of course, you\u2019ve got to go see the Pantheon, you\u2019ve got to go and see these things. But you don\u2019t really understand Rome if you only see the very grand things. It\u2019s like going to New York and only going to the Empire State Building. It\u2019s like, yeah, sure, it\u2019s awesome, but the life of the city isn\u2019t the Empire State Building.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel:<\/strong> So it sounds like in order to really get a window into the past of Rome and of Romans, these underground places are kind of a portal into that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet: <\/strong>There\u2019s two things going on. One is you can go into places that will teach you what the daily life of ancient Rome was. And the other thing is it really gets your imagination going because it\u2019s special and secret and it\u2019s dark and you\u2019re just shining a torch around.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel: <\/strong>And you got to go through a hole or through a door or something. So you\u2019re really like entering another world.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet: <\/strong>You feel like <a href=\"https:\/\/www.smithsonianmag.com\/history\/an-archaeologists-take-on-what-indiana-jones-gets-rightand-wrongabout-the-discipline-180982471\/\">Indiana Jones<\/a>, you\u2019re entering another dimension of reality. It feels closer to the past. You feel like you\u2019re stepping through a portal. In part, that\u2019s why I love these places.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel:<\/strong> And, Tony, why do these places exist? Did Rome simply build on top of itself over the centuries and so the history is simply below the ground?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet: <\/strong>Yeah, they would reuse places. In the United States, we would just knock it down and build another one. But there, that was too much work. And in the Middle Ages, for example, they had no money and they didn\u2019t have building materials. So they were like, \u201cOK, we\u2019ll live in this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And what happens is debris gathers. That\u2019s why if you go to the Colosseum, it\u2019s like 30 feet down around it, or the Pantheon goes down because there\u2019s so much stuff\u2014garbage, human detritus. Over 2,000 years, this adds up. Some of them are intact underground, but others, archaeologists go in and they remove the debris and they find the structure. So then it\u2019s excavated. So it\u2019s a combination of all these things. But Rome is building on top of itself. It has been building on top of itself for 3,000 years.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel: <\/strong>It sounds like, for you, it helps to bring these places to life.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet: <\/strong>Indeed, indeed. Since the \u201960s, \u201970s, there\u2019s been a lot of interest in social history. Before that, we\u2019d learn about the emperors, we\u2019d learn about Caligula. And then now, everyone started to be much more interested in the people whose names we don\u2019t really remember, but the other million Romans. How did a city of a million people function in those days? There\u2019s the official version, which has got the monuments, we\u2019ve got the Forum, we\u2019ve got the statues. Those are awesome. But what about the rest of the city?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel:<\/strong> Tony, let me ask you, so how did these sites become part of the tourist circuit?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet: <\/strong>Well, they\u2019re not really part of tourist circuit. But in the Renaissance, Michelangelo and Raphael and all the other artists would lower themselves by rope into these subterranean places that were discovered. Nero\u2019s Golden House, and it was discovered by accident. The earth cracked open, and this farmer was like, \u201cWhat\u2019s down there?\u201d So they went down there with torches and they were seeing all these amazing ancient frescoes, and so that was, in a sense, touristic and it had a huge influence, because then [came] this whole revival of interest in the ancient world, or the artists are using ancient imagery. So, in that sense, these places have always been part of it. But then, in this other sense, now, there\u2019s crazy people like me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel: <\/strong>How does the tourism aspect of this work? It sounds like some of these sites are really special and off-limits. Others, there are regularly guided tours. Others, you kind of have to call up for permission. So there\u2019s a whole suite of ways, but if someone were to want to go on some of these underground tours to visit these sites, what would you recommend?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet: <\/strong>Well, it\u2019s done in a very eccentric way. A lot of the museums have standard hours. The churches, like San Clemente, you just turn up, pay your euros and away you go. The catacombs as well. And then there\u2019s the next tier of places that are run by the archaeology department and they\u2019re the ones that only open monthly. You\u2019ve got to go onto their <a href=\"https:\/\/www.soprintendenzaspecialeroma.it\/\">website<\/a> and then you\u2019ve got to call up this number and then you\u2019ve got to book it. It\u2019s like a strange game, because you have to know that the place exists before you can ask to get access to it. And then the last tier is when I went down into the one that was still running. It\u2019s totally off-limits. They only take very specialized people have got an actual reason to go down there, because it\u2019s very fragile. They don\u2019t want to have people just traipsing up and down.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel:<\/strong> Not just anyone can go wade waist-deep in aqueduct water.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet: <\/strong>It took me months to get to permission. They were finally like, \u201cOK.\u201d I think they just wanted to get rid of me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel: <\/strong>Well, sending you down into an underground aqueduct \u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet:<\/strong> Is one way!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel: <\/strong>\u2026 is one way to get rid of you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet:<\/strong> Yeah. My buddies, Marco and the gang, they have their cave in the park and they open on weekends and you book it online and you go down and they do tours, even do mountain bike tours down there because it\u2019s mile after mile of these tunnels.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel: <\/strong>Mountain bike tour underground?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet: <\/strong>Yes. I didn\u2019t do that because it didn\u2019t sound that much fun. But apparently, it is fun. And they\u2019ll have gatherings and events and lectures and the whole panoply of tourist activities. And you can do the Indiana Jones one where you climb the ladder up and go into the catacombs with the bones if you want to. It\u2019s not everyone\u2019s cup of tea, but you can do it. And it\u2019s not expensive. They\u2019re not, like, trying to make any money out of it. They just love to do it. And they love to share their knowledge of all this underground stuff.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel: <\/strong>So, I\u2019m curious to know: How can people that do go to these sites just be more responsible tourists to make sure that they\u2019re treating these locations responsibly?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet: <\/strong>Well, don\u2019t touch things. Don\u2019t graffiti. Don\u2019t carve your name, which is what everyone used to do up until relatively recently. So it\u2019s really same as a national park. Leave no trace. You don\u2019t go in there with your cappuccino and spill it on the floor on the mosaics or whatever. Remain respectful. In the cave, the one that\u2019s in the park, the Great Quarry, those guys, they\u2019ve set up a little bar where they can gather. They want to use parts of it. But it\u2019s so huge, it\u2019s only like really a few rooms that they use on a daily or weekly basis. And they\u2019re very, very careful. Maybe more people go there than some of the archaeology sites, but they genuinely love the underground. They love their quarries, so they preserve everything. They make sure there\u2019s not too many people. It\u2019s all under control. So yeah, really, it\u2019s just common sense.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel: <\/strong>When you think about this type of experience, who would you recommend it to? How might somebody know it would be a good fit for them?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet: <\/strong>Well, I mean anyone who\u2019s interested in history. Most people who go to Rome are kind of interested in the Roman Empire and these extraordinary sites. Some people, maybe there just for the pasta and the wine, which is awesome.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel: <\/strong>Which you can eat or drink underground?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet:<\/strong> Yeah. Or they might be interested in the Renaissance. People get a broader picture of the ancient world, this extraordinary city that was, until very recently, the largest city that ever existed in Western culture. And how did it function? You can go down the sewers. The sewers were considered one of the wonders of the ancient world. Pliny the Elder writes about the Cloaca Maxima. It was such an engineering feat. It\u2019s extraordinary.<\/p>\n<p>But even if, say, you\u2019re interested in the Second World War, you don\u2019t care about the ancient world, you can go to Mussolini\u2019s bunker. He lived in a place called the Villa Torlonia, and it\u2019s like this gorgeous Renaissance structure that\u2019s there. You can wander through there, and that\u2019s awesome, but you can buy a special ticket in advance. You can go down in the bunker. And this was the expansion of the wine cellar.<\/p>\n<p>He had it designed when the Americans started bombing Rome, And then he set it up so him and his mistress could survive for months down there\u2014enough food and these different access points. And they set it up as a little museum. They\u2019ve got footage. You learn a lot about the history of fascism and Mussolini and how Rome was bombed. We think the Allies didn\u2019t, but they did and they destroyed a lot. So that\u2019s kind of fascinating. Anyone who\u2019s interested in history would love it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel:<\/strong> Whether or not you\u2019re willing to go exploring Rome\u2019s bunkers, caves, and aqueducts underground, Tony advises that while visiting, you should make time for the parts of the city more regularly appreciated by its locals. In a place as old and majestic as Rome, even the mundane can contain fascinating remnants of history.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet: <\/strong>The whole ancient world is embedded in the texture of the city. You go to a restaurant, there\u2019s ancient mosaic, sure, it\u2019s part of the background. You keep coming across these things all the time. And that adds to the strange beauty of it and the beauty of Rome. Even though it\u2019s crowded and complaining about all the crowds now, but it\u2019s still a magical and unbeatable place. Go visit the historical center when you want it, but just brace yourself. Go early or go late at night. Late at night, you can wander around beautifully floodlit\u2014all the fountains and plazas and no one else is there.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel: <\/strong>And it sounds like that magic of Rome really courses throughout the city, both aboveground in maybe some more obvious places but also belowground in these unexpected places.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet: <\/strong>Yes, exactly. Everything in Rome has been used so much over the last 2,000 years. All of time is occurring at once in Rome. It\u2019s all there at once. Romans could be very casual about it. It\u2019s like, \u201cYeah, so what, we know this place is amazing.\u201d But for visitors, there\u2019s also this very casual depth of history that\u2019s there that sometimes it\u2019ll just make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up cause you\u2019re like, \u201cOh, my God.\u201d These are these things and they\u2019re just there. You\u2019re enjoying your bowl of pasta and it\u2019s all around you. You can still have this sense of discovery, and I think that\u2019s what keeps the magic going. You need to have this feeling that you\u2019re finding something that not that many people can see. And I think that keeps the magic of Rome alive.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Daniel: <\/strong>Tony, thank you so much. This was terrific. I really enjoyed speaking with you about it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet: <\/strong>Thanks for having me.<\/p>\n<hr\/>\n<p><strong>Daniel: <\/strong>To read more about <a href=\"https:\/\/www.smithsonianmag.com\/travel\/explore-romes-hidden-underworld-city-beneath-city-180986228\/\">Tony\u2019s underground travels in Rome<\/a> and even see a few pictures of the sites he mentioned in this episode, head over to SmithsonianMag.com. We\u2019ll also put a link in our show notes. And while you\u2019re checking out links, consider leaving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps other listeners find our show.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cThere\u2019s More to That\u201d is a production of <em>Smithsonian <\/em>magazine and PRX Productions. From the magazine, our team is me, Debra Rosenberg and Brian Wolly. From PRX, our team is Jessica Miller, Genevieve Sponsler, Adriana Rozas Rivera, Sandra Lopez Monsalve and Edwin Ochoa. The executive producer of PRX Productions is Jocelyn Gonzales.<\/p>\n<p>Our episode artwork is by Emily Lankiewicz. Fact-checking by Stephanie Abramson. Our music is from APM Music.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m Ari Daniel. Thanks for listening.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Perrottet:<\/strong> Most people don\u2019t know about it, maybe I\u2019m blowing it by writing about it in <em>The Smithsonian<\/em>.<\/p>\n<div class=\"expedia\">\n<h3>Planning Your Next Trip?<\/h3>\n<p>Explore great travel deals<\/p>\n<div class=\"disclaimer\">\n      <i class=\"fa fa-asterisk\" aria-hidden=\"true\"\/><\/p>\n<p>\n        <strong>A Note to our Readers<\/strong><br \/>\n        Smithsonian magazine participates in affiliate link advertising programs. If you purchase an item through these links, we receive a commission.\n      <\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<section class=\"tag-list\">\n<nav class=\"nav-tags\">\n<\/nav>\n<\/section><\/div>\n\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>There&#8217;s More to That A Smithsonian magazine special report To escape the crowds of the Eternal City, head below ground and enter a portal into Rome\u2019s past Ari Daniel &#8211; Host, &#8220;There&#8217;s More to That&#8221; May 15, 2025 7:30 a.m. Tourism is surging in many places around the world\u2014swarmed national parks, throngs of visitors amassing [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":243139,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[12024],"tags":[8054,72857,25529,11566,13451,1562,89275,2472,5614],"dealstore":[],"offerexpiration":[],"class_list":["post-243138","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-aerospace","tag-beneath","tag-colosseum","tag-discovering","tag-foundation","tag-joys","tag-roman","tag-trevi","tag-underground","tag-whats"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v26.4 - 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