{"id":160282,"date":"2025-03-27T19:41:03","date_gmt":"2025-03-27T19:41:03","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/peraltafinancing.com\/business\/marketing\/the-trials-and-tribulations-of-an-advertising-recruiter\/"},"modified":"2025-03-27T19:41:03","modified_gmt":"2025-03-27T19:41:03","slug":"the-trials-and-tribulations-of-an-advertising-recruiter","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/fivemor.com\/?p=160282","title":{"rendered":"The Trials And Tribulations Of An Advertising Recruiter"},"content":{"rendered":"<p> <br \/>\n<\/p>\n<div data-bglz=\"1\" itemprop=\"text\">\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/ipopulate\/\" class=\"external\" target=\"_blank\">Belinda Lodge<\/a> is the founder and CEO of <a href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/ipopulate\/\" class=\"external\" target=\"_blank\">iPopulate<\/a>, a well-known recruitment agency for advertising professionals.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In a frank and wide-ranging discussion, Belinda and Ellie talk about bootstrapping a business with $400 and a milk crate, what a good recruitment consultant can bring to the table, and how perception of consultancy is blurred by individuals and organisations untrained in the discipline of recruiting; the best and the worst in candidates, and candidate selection, post-COVID; the scourge of under and over-remuneration of talent, international v local talent, and more \u2013 all threaded with Belinda\u2019s infectious enthusiasm, her candid observations and her genuine love for her craft and the advertising industry.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>You can listen to the podcast here:<\/p>\n<p><iframe data-bglz=\"1\" loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https:\/\/www.trinityp3.com\/podcasts\/the-trials-and-tribulations-of-an-advertising-recruiter\/about:blank\" width=\"100%\" height=\"166\" frameborder=\"no\" scrolling=\"no\" data-rocket-lazyload=\"fitvidscompatible\" data-lazy-src=\"https:\/\/w.soundcloud.com\/player\/?url=https%3A\/\/api.soundcloud.com\/tracks\/2051491380&amp;color=%23ff5500&amp;auto_play=false&amp;hide_related=false&amp;show_comments=true&amp;show_user=true&amp;show_reposts=false&amp;show_teaser=true\"><\/iframe><noscript><iframe loading=\"lazy\" data-bglz=\"1\" src=\"https:\/\/w.soundcloud.com\/player\/?url=https%3A\/\/api.soundcloud.com\/tracks\/2051491380&amp;color=%23ff5500&amp;auto_play=false&amp;hide_related=false&amp;show_comments=true&amp;show_user=true&amp;show_reposts=false&amp;show_teaser=true\" width=\"100%\" height=\"166\" frameborder=\"no\" scrolling=\"no\"><\/iframe><\/noscript><\/p>\n<p>Follow Managing Marketing on\u00a0<a class=\"external\" href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/managing-marketing\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\">Soundcloud<\/a>,\u00a0<a class=\"external\" href=\"https:\/\/managingmarketing.podbean.com\/\" rel=\"noopener\" target=\"_blank\">Podbean,<\/a>\u00a0<a class=\"external\" href=\"https:\/\/tunein.com\/podcasts\/Business--Economics-Podcasts\/Managing-Marketing-p1275737\/\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\">TuneIn<\/a>,\u00a0<a class=\"external\" href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/75mJ4Gt6MWzFWvmd3A64XW\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\">Stitcher,<\/a>\u00a0<a class=\"external\" href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/75mJ4Gt6MWzFWvmd3A64XW\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\">Spotify,<\/a>\u00a0<a class=\"external\" href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/au\/podcast\/managing-marketing\/id1018735190\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\">Apple Podcast<\/a>\u00a0and\u00a0<a class=\"external\" href=\"https:\/\/music.amazon.com\/podcasts\/5e7b205c-81c9-44e0-aa1d-d2ce504c6048%E2%80%8B\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\">Amazon Podcasts.<\/a><\/p>\n<h3\/>\n<h3 style=\"text-align: center;\">I blame us for that. I totally blame us for that. We used to have the most amazing internships that were happening around agencies. People wanted to work for us because we wanted to be around the cool, young kind of interesting brains, I still want to be around those brains.<\/h3>\n<h3\/>\n<h3>Transcription:<\/h3>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>My name is Ellie Angell and welcome to Managing Marketing, a podcast where we discuss the issues and opportunities facing marketing, media, and advertising with industry thought leaders and practitioners.<\/p>\n<p>And remember, if you\u2019re enjoying the Managing Marketing Podcast, please either like, review or share this episode to help spread the words of wisdom from our guests each week. It\u2019s going to be wise this week, I think.<\/p>\n<p>Today, I\u2019m joined by Belinda Lodge, who is the founder and CEO of iPopulate. A market leading agency, recruitment consultancy based out of Melbourne but I think handling all markets. Welcome Belinda. Thank you for joining me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s lovely to be with you, Ellie.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s always lovely to talk to you. We go back a way, this is the first ever official piece of communication we\u2019ve done. So, I\u2019m kind of looking forward to it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>As am I.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>And I want to talk about, to me at least, and tell me if I\u2019m wrong, but you\u2019re just a Melbourne girl through and through and I love that about you. And back in the day you were in agency land yourself, I think before taking on some recruitment roles and then establishing, iPopulate in 2009, I think. How did those early experiences shaped your own vision for what you wanted iPopulate to be?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s a beautiful question and an extremely basic answer. I was fired during the GFC and I went around trying to get another job, and I realized that the quality of the interviews that I was attending were terrible. People didn\u2019t ask me questions, there was no natural curiosity, it was very transactional and it was quite heartbreaking. So, I couldn\u2019t get a job.<\/p>\n<p>A girlfriend of mine decided it might be a good idea for me to start my company because nobody else would hire me, I did just that. So, I bought 400 buck computer from JB Hi-Fi. My now husband found a milk crate in the back alley of my St Kilda flat that was my desk and I was there for 18 months, just hustle your way.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>I mean that\u2019s bootstrapping on steroids. I love that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>But it\u2019s not one of those glamorous founder stories that everyone\u2019s kind of got their raison d\u2019\u00eatre tied into it, it\u2019s just necessity being the mother of all invention.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>But that makes it more impressive because that was 2009 and you are still here doing it. So, to be honest, I love the bootstrap story and I love the milk crate and the $400 computer, because you took a punt on what you knew you were good at and it\u2019s clearly been proven right, because here we are in 2025.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Well, that\u2019s very generous of you to say so. I think what happens now is we\u2019ve got these amazingly curated founder stories when I have never seen a small business that is elegant or a startup that is elegant.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s always scrappy, it\u2019s always hard and I think for me, I was just a bit more honest about those hardships. Like they were lean times. I think for the first two years I was still applying for jobs while I was working.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Well, look, I must say, and just to point out that there isn\u2019t a milk crate in site today, we\u2019re in a lovely office overlooking Albert Park and yeah, I think your computer\u2019s probably worth more than 400 bucks, so progress.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Yeah, totally, totally. I\u2019ll take that, yes. The offices have got bigger as the years have gotten on and now I have natural lighting and a view, which I\u2019m deeply appreciative of.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>There you go. But I do want to touch on something serious in what you said, because it was true back in 2009, and I think to a certain extent it\u2019s true now. Recruitment, and I\u2019m thinking about agencies specifically, recruitment is not something that people are properly trained for. I know I wasn\u2019t and I\u2019ve experienced crap interviews.<\/p>\n<p>And the reason that that\u2019s scary to me is that this business is all, I mean, yes, agencies have IP and stuff, but it\u2019s the application of people to that IP that makes any kind of difference to them in terms of how good they are at their job, and therefore how strong our industry is.<\/p>\n<p>So, I always get scared by that and I think, it says something that while there are people like you now in the industry, we still do suffer from that a bit, and I think consultancy also suffers from that a bit.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Very much.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Like a reputation and perception perspective. I mean, we\u2019re both consultants albeit in very different fields. And in my own experience has been that while you can definitely build respect and trust over time based on the way you choose to operate, and I think you\u2019ve achieved that in spades, frankly.<\/p>\n<p>The word consultant attached to a person\u2019s job title can sometimes suffer from negative perceptions in the market. So, you\u2019re trying to do your best thing, but people, and again, aren\u2019t trained to recruit properly and aren\u2019t trained to recruitment consultants properly either. And you see chatter on LinkedIn about it and stuff. What do you think about that? How do you overcome it when you\u2019re on the hunt for your own new business?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Such a great question. So, firstly, the thing that I love, respect, adore, appreciate, and will passionately defend is advertisings generosity in welcoming people from any kind of scenario, situation and background. So, I was a beneficiary of them letting me have a crack. So, I\u2019m now years on, can turn around and go, how dare you give the next generation a crack.<\/p>\n<p>Where I do get quite frustrated is when people don\u2019t understand that recruitment is a discipline and it\u2019s learned and it\u2019s a discipline that is honed over a long period of time. I am fundamentally better at my job this year than I was last year and it will continue.<\/p>\n<p>What happens when \u2026 well, actually, let me put it this way, Ellie, I have never, as a headhunter, thought I might have a crack at being a CEO of an ad agency. And that is because I don\u2019t have the fundamental skillset, the discipline or the craft to be able to step into the role.<\/p>\n<p>The amount of people that have worked in advertising and think that they can just go into recruitment because they know a couple of people and have a PC, 400 bucks. I think that can be frustrating, especially when people end up inadvertently wounded.<\/p>\n<p>And one of the circumstances where I\u2019ve seen this quite prevalent is around salaries. So, if people don\u2019t have an accurate understanding of what people are getting paid at a certain point in time that can throw the whole entire market out and then it does become the consultant\u2019s job to go and clean all of that up.<\/p>\n<p>The work from home, the constantly hyping up jobs where you don\u2019t have to do a lot, it\u2019s almost like the selling skills or the selling points for each of these jobs are, you don\u2019t have to come to work, you don\u2019t have to have a particularly onerous role, the responsibility is going to be nominal.<\/p>\n<p>I don\u2019t know a talent in ad land that would find any of that appealing five years ago and now all of a sudden, it\u2019s being sold as an appropriate job category. And I\u2019m not entirely sure if that\u2019s doing the industry any good. Does that make sense?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>No, it really does.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>And then we\u2019ve also got the challenge that lots of small businesses have got, which is the barrier to entry is quite low. So, if you have a computer and you know a couple of people and have worked in advertising and if you think that recruitment is just hiring a skillset and just throwing a skillset in as opposed to hiring a human, a creative human and creative humans are often very complicated, that I think is a difference between maybe a transactional recruiter and a recruitment consultant as I would kind of.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s so fast. There are so many more parallels to what the two of us do actually that then in these conversation, I\u2019m kind of having my eyes out by some of the things you\u2019re talking about. The concept of someone hanging a shingle above a door and saying, \u201cI am now a consultant,\u201d absolutely exists for us too.<\/p>\n<p>And look, TrinityP3, I mean, we\u2019re human beings too, this isn\u2019t a sales pitch for TrinityP3, there are other consultants out there who are amazing, but we find that with 20 years of IP behind us, and you talk about salaries, I mean, our recording on that is agency remuneration.<\/p>\n<p>People who with the shingle who don\u2019t have that IP can really skew and that then is a follow on to then people agency\u2019s ability to hire people and how much they pay them because all these things are interrelated.<\/p>\n<p>I also want to pick out something that you sort of said in different words, which I say all the time. As a consultant and let\u2019s just take pictures, it\u2019s one of the things that I do. I\u2019m not here to educate the client on when you do a pitch you have an RFI and then an RFP and then you do a commercial just as you are not there to educate them that well, you write a job description and then you find a candidate.<\/p>\n<p>Everybody knows the building blocks, the consultant value comes in all of the myriad nuances in between of how you are dealing with human beings and the context of that and the experience of that, that\u2019s where consultants add value. If you\u2019re a good consultant, there\u2019s no doubt about it. So, it kind of frustrates me too that it\u2019s sort of the skill set is both underestimated and people don\u2019t even realize.<\/p>\n<p>And when I\u2019m on the hunt for new business and I talk to clients, I often talk about, look, I\u2019m here to, it\u2019s when the agency leaves the room is when I add the most, it\u2019s the nuances in between the landmark sessions which for you would be the interview for me, it\u2019s the chemistry session. Look-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>But do you think though that people understand if you have industry fluency or not? You kind of can\u2019t fake that. You might be able to fake it at some level for a period of time, but I mean, how long have you been doing this?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Well, firstly, I\u2019m not used to getting asked questions on the podcast.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>So, I\u2019m an interviewer.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Well, reversal. I\u2019m being interviewed for this job now, this is amazing. No, please ask away. It makes for a more interesting conversation. But yeah, look, I had an agency \u2026 and again, stuff you said earlier on, it did resonate with me.<\/p>\n<p>I didn\u2019t do the \u2014 well, no, I have my own business that sits behind and I contracted TrinityP3, but yes, I bought myself a laptop and had a desk in my house. I\u2019ve been doing this consultancy work since 2015. I had a long history in agencies.<\/p>\n<p>Did I know how to be a consultant when I joined? I was teaching, building the plane and flying it at the same time as you would\u2019ve done on your milk crate there but I did have related experience in various different fields.<\/p>\n<p>I also had, I mean, this is where we differ slightly, I had the benefit of TrinityP3\u2019s weight behind me, whereas you didn\u2019t. But I am certainly a better consultant this year than I was last year, than I was the year before.<\/p>\n<p>Just like you\u2019re saying, this is something, and that\u2019s where people underestimate the skillset involved and the nuances involved. And you never stop just as in most other professions, you never stop learning in this job and that keeps me fresh and it keeps me hungry, I guess and I guess that\u2019s the same for you, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Well, it\u2019s also that other thing about people opening up all the time and everybody thinking they can do what you do, it does keep you hungry.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>And look, some people are never going to buy it and some people aren\u2019t, but when I\u2019m at my most satisfied, it\u2019s when a client\u2019s turned around at the end of a project and said, \u201cOh, we didn\u2019t think we needed you but we\u2019ve realized that,\u201d and when I say I\u2019m talking about TrinityP3 generally, not myself, but when they\u2019ve had their eyes open and their heads turn, I\u2019m like, \u201cYeah, that is job satisfaction for me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Agreed, yeah, same. And also, there is this interesting thing that happens in recruitment where if you care less, you make more money. So, that in and of itself is something that\u2019s quite problematic that all of us have to deal with.<\/p>\n<p>I care. I can\u2019t help it. I feel like this is my community and these are my people, and it really matters to me what their experience is when they go into an agency and that means sometimes we\u2019re doing lots of interviews.<\/p>\n<p>We\u2019re doing lots of time to make sure that it\u2019s right, which is very different to somebody just having a 20-minute Zoom meeting and then flicking you over to agencies.<\/p>\n<p>So, it\u2019s also just trying to educate the talent pool that it might take longer to do it the right way, but it\u2019s still the right way to do it. And that kind of protects your career and it\u2019s not just going in and doing a job, per se.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s ethics and integrity. I mean, there are certain types of client that I know I\u2019m never going to work with purely because their approach is with all due respect to them, but their approach does not fit with what I\u2019m going to advocate for and that makes it impossible.<\/p>\n<p>We\u2019ll never take a model that pays us on results, as in get the agency cheaper and we\u2019ll give you a bonus, we\u2019re never going to do that and that\u2019s in the quick way to do it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019ll be the way.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Screw them down on cost, chuck something over as quick as you can. In your world, it would be just find them, find them, the cheapest talent and I\u2019ll pick up my 15% or whatever it is and job done and I move on.<\/p>\n<p>I don\u2019t think long term businesses are built like that consultative wise anyway but there\u2019s an integrity behind that. And I\u2019ve taken a sense of personal responsibility and I know you do.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Yes, I do. I do. Which is why I drink so much.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>I mean, it is what\u2019s behind Melbourne girl, just like you\u2019re in this Australian girl, really, I should say. You\u2019re so embedded in this market and this industry culture and I know that you care and it does count for a lot. Right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Look, it really does. And we have an unfair share of talent in advertising, we always have. And I feel it\u2019s a privilege to be able to sit down and talk for two hours about somebody\u2019s career. Let\u2019s say I\u2019ve done four interviews five days a week for 20 years. That\u2019s a lot of people that I\u2019ve been able to just kind of ask whatever questions I want and pick their brain.<\/p>\n<p>It is like a really special conversation to be invited into, and I\u2019ve never lost sight of that. And the same with agencies. I get invited into their inner sanctum of the problems inside an agency and that needs to be taken seriously as well. That needs to be treated with some discretion, some gentleness, some generosity. I think it\u2019s all those soft skills that we miss when we\u2019re hiring skill sets and not hiring humans.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>So, that\u2019s a great segue into my next question because I do want to talk a bit about candidates. Everything you said so far points to a holistic, nuanced, experience-based assessment of candidates for any kind of given role and also, when you are helping an agency to prep with a description or whatever.<\/p>\n<p>So, I\u2019ve got two questions, outside of the core skill sets. In other words, they\u2019ve got 10 years of strategy, experience or whatever it might be. What qualities do you think make a good agency candidate for a modern ad agency? And just as importantly, what do you actually personally love and hate about the way candidates interact with you when you\u2019re doing all of those interviews?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Well, that\u2019s a spicier question. So, let\u2019s start there, let\u2019s start there. I\u2019ve got it. I can catch that one.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>They\u2019ve all been sealed, but yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>So, here\u2019s what I\u2019m not loving. I\u2019m not loving the Zooms. I think we lose something when people who are three blocks from my office don\u2019t want to come into the office. We lose something in the interaction.<\/p>\n<p>As old school as that is, now, I\u2019m not saying we can\u2019t do some things via Zoom, we certainly can. But if I\u2019m going to go place somebody into a senior position, there is going to be a process and we are going to share a meal together.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m going to watch what you do with the waiter; we are going to go through a whole entire process together before I give you to an agency and unleash you. So, I don\u2019t love not being an active participant in the recruitment process and doing the bare minimum. That would also apply to, I can tell when somebody has had AI draft their CV.<\/p>\n<p>And there is something about putting a pen to paper and having to relive your career and writing things down that makes you just way better when you get in the room. So, some of it is that kind of help me help you feeling with the talent and then I think what we are missing at the moment and what my agencies are calling out for are some of these soft skills.<\/p>\n<p>So, this is going to age me, but the idea of putting in a decent shift, getting up, doing good day\u2019s work, going home exhausted, I don\u2019t know, I outwork anybody. I love work and I think there is something going on where we are telling the talent that they need to be shielded from the consequences of work or shielded from their boss.<\/p>\n<p>I don\u2019t know what I would be if I didn\u2019t have my career, but it wouldn\u2019t be anything good, it just wouldn\u2019t have been. Routine kind of saved me, having a purpose saved me, there was so many things about my life that fell into place once I found a career and then I found this great quality of people.<\/p>\n<p>And I think that our generation is just doing this horrible disservice to the next generation by trying to protect them from a career. A career is a great blessing if you have the right kind of career for you. So, that frustrates me a little bit as well.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Do you think that\u2019s a generational thing or do you think it\u2019s a time of the time in which we\u2019re living, post COVID?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Yeah, I think it\u2019s in all of it. It\u2019s a soup. And then it\u2019s interesting when we saw that employers are no longer allowed to contact their staff outside of regular hours. That felt to me like the government coming in to protect people from these horrible bosses that are going to exploit them.<\/p>\n<p>I mean sure that exists but so do great places with fantastic cultures that will always protect their staff before they protect the revenue, the margin, whatever. Those places exist as well and I just don\u2019t think those stories have reached the next generation of talent.<\/p>\n<p>But we also live in the city, so coming into an office is not as hard for me as it might be for somebody who\u2019s living in Geelong, so I also understand that the next generation might not have the same opportunities that we had when we were coming up.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Maybe not but there is a lot to be set for context, like you say. So, blanket mandates about what you\u2019re allowed to do and not allowed to do can stifle relationship building, innovation, creativity in what is a very creative industry because people will be too scared of consequences of breaking these sort of mandates which I\u2019m sure are completely appropriate for some industries.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019d probably argue not appropriate for ours, just in the way it works, the way people are and the type of people that are drawn to this space. And that\u2019s not to say that inappropriate behavior of any kind should be overlooked or not thought about. I think that\u2019s not what you\u2019re saying at all, it\u2019s more, look, there has to be scope for people being able to give their best and try hard and develop these careers and that takes work.<\/p>\n<p>It takes effort. It doesn\u2019t mean slave driving, it doesn\u2019t mean inappropriate behavior, it doesn\u2019t mean being forced to do anything. But I think people should be given the opportunity and to have a tenacity to progress how they want to progress if the environment allows them to do that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Yes. So, do I. And I think capping it means that we\u2019re setting a culture that historically has not been an agency culture, which is we are nine to fivers, we come in, we clock out, that\u2019s never been us, that\u2019s never been us.<\/p>\n<p>Did we push it all the other way at times? Absolutely. Especially 15 years ago, geez, even 10 years ago, sometimes now. But I think more of us that are a little bit older need to be highlighting all of the beautiful things that our career has brought into our world and not just highlighting this kind of nefarious relationship with the industry or with the boss whereby you need to be protected.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>But I also think it has a direct link to some of the stuff we were talking about early on because, and I think the industry has been guilty of this and the conditions that someone works in, the amount that they\u2019re paid, the way that they are treated within that context that you\u2019ve just been describing that we\u2019ve just been talking about is equally important.<\/p>\n<p>And that\u2019s why either experts internally or consultants to call it what you will, to not skew the market, to not underpay, to make sure that there its risk and reward. You\u2019ve got to take a risk to have a decent career, but at the same time, you need to be rewarded for it properly too and that\u2019s a huge balance and it extends into what I do.<\/p>\n<p>Again, it extends into agencies being paid fairly so they can pay their people fairly. This is never going to be a nine to five industry until marketers work like that with their suppliers which isn\u2019t going to happen.<\/p>\n<p>I mean, marketers are probably more nine to five but as in terms of how they work in my experience but that doesn\u2019t mean they\u2019re not pushing their agency to do stuff and the pressures on them are huge, and that translates into the agency, and the agency needs to retain and win business and all of that does not point to nine to five, it just doesn\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>It doesn\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>But at the same time, whilst people don\u2019t need protection, they do still need recognition and they need reward. And I think that, I mean, we\u2019re talking like a soup is probably a good way. I mean, this is all in the same like melting pot of everything that needs to be maintained and improved in this world.<\/p>\n<p>So, I mean, it\u2019s interesting you talk about the soft skills, we\u2019ve talked a lot about how the past has shaped where we are now and maybe some of those elements that we need to keep. But thinking about the agencies for a sec, you\u2019ve obviously been involved in agencies a long time, as have I in various, I\u2019ve worked in them and I\u2019ve worked around them.<\/p>\n<p>Thinking big bucket terms, what\u2019s changed and what has stayed the same about agencies. We\u2019ve sort of started talking about this already, but between the time you started and today, what\u2019s changed and what\u2019s stayed the same, and what do you think the biggest threats are to agencies?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>So, the biggest change has got to be the rise of the indie scene, certainly here in Melbourne. It has been a joy to be around. It has been and continues to be a fantastic home for deeply creative humans and quirky humans. And I think no one does that better than agencies, I would argue.<\/p>\n<p>Indie agencies, sorry, the consultancies coming in was interesting, the consultancies going out equally is interesting. Again, I kind of don\u2019t know what to make of that. So, those things have all been wonderful and fabulous and contributed greatly to the scene here.<\/p>\n<p>I think some of the things that have been really challenging, we\u2019ve always had a destined nation agency here in Australia, and certainly in Melbourne with BBDO which means we\u2019ve always had access to global talent. They\u2019ve always been in and around our market.<\/p>\n<p>We\u2019ve missed having a destination agency here because we haven\u2019t attracted the same level of talent into the local market, and I think I\u2019m starting to see that inside the agencies now.<\/p>\n<p>That lack of lots of international talent and I don\u2019t mean people from America or else, I mean Aussies that have gone off overseas and then come back. I think it\u2019s harder and harder for those kind of talent to find a home now in our market because we just don\u2019t have a destination agency the same way that we did when BBDO was firing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>But at the same time, we still have lots of independent agencies.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Fantastic independent agencies.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Have they changed the way agencies work and are perceived in and of themselves-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Or have they just added \u2026 yeah, I wanted you to answer that rather than me to state an opinion, but I tend to agree. And a lot of that is because it\u2019s the classic independent comes from people who have worked in whole coast and who want to do things differently so the one thing leads to the other.<\/p>\n<p>And that\u2019s not a criticism of holding company or large globals, people think about things in different ways and that\u2019s led to this sort of explosion of independent agencies over the last decade or so. So, it\u2019s not that one thing\u2019s better than the other but I do think independent agencies are helping to change the way all agencies work.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>I agree. I agree.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>And that does, I mean, it flows back to the way they hire talent, it flows back to the way that talent is developed and then spreads seeds of change. And like moving from an independent to a whole co and having seen the differences, they\u2019re spreading seed of change just from their own experience. I\u2019m hypothesizing, right? I mean, I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>No, you\u2019re exactly right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>I don\u2019t have studies on this. You are the expert.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>No, you\u2019re exactly right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>But that\u2019s what I feel is happening and it\u2019s sort of both ways. They\u2019re taking the best of both models and in the sort of, and I\u2019m hoping that sort of the tide raises all boats type of thing, because we all want a healthy industry, we all want agencies that punch above their weight, we all want great work.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>And we\u2019re getting back there, it really feels like we\u2019re getting back there. We\u2019ve just missed it since kind of before COVID, I think there\u2019s been this it, yeah \u2026 something\u2019s shifted, which has meant that the quality of talent that we\u2019re attracting hasn\u2019t been as high post COVID as it was kind of pre COVID.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>So, I\u2019m just thinking that through, it\u2019s interesting.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>So, when Pixie is running claims and you got whatever it was, 500 people and you\u2019ve got them from VCCP, BBH, you got all of those people just rocking through our market all the time. It was just wonderful and we were all really spoiled and then we weren\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>But I also think that there\u2019s a challenge at the bottom end of this market as well because as much as international talent is really important, obviously we want local talent coming through, both existing at senior levels, but also coming through the ranks.<\/p>\n<p>And I think the perception of advertising as an industry has changed with new generation and I\u2019m talking about just the way advertising is perceived, not even the way agencies are perceived as workplace, it\u2019s just the way advertising is perceived in society.<\/p>\n<p>And I think that has created a challenge. Aside from entry level pay and everything else, I think that\u2019s created a challenge in terms of attracting the best people in at the bottom end who will then thrive going forward.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>But again, I blame us for that. I totally blame us for that. We used to have the most amazing internships that were happening around agencies. People wanted to work for us because we wanted to be around the cool, young kind of interesting brains, I still want to be around those brains.<\/p>\n<p>Some of them were absolutely amazing but I think we need to give them a reason to come to us and I think we\u2019re doing that really poorly at the moment. And then we overlay that with the younger guys are the ones that are dealing with the transactional recruitment consultants and there is no way that\u2019s being done at a standard that would compete with-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>No, that\u2019s not going to attract them either. No, no, no, for sure.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s just not. So, I think there is work for us to do if we are going to continue to attract those younger, amazing, kind of just curious, insightful, once in a generation brain, we have to be better and if we aren\u2019t, then we don\u2019t deserve them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s funny, this industry\u2019s quite good via AANA, MFA industry bodies like that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Oh, I love an industry body.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Well, hey, look, the codes of conduct, best practice codes, playbooks are developed for various things. I\u2019ve never seen a playbook or a code of conduct or an industry standard for recruitment in agency recruitment. I\u2019ve never seen one. You should write one. There\u2019s an idea.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Could you imagine?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>We could start a little recruitment consultancy body.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Jesus Christ. You\u2019d have to get your editing pen out.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Actually, I\u2019m only half joking about that. I mean, I think that there are now guidelines around pitching, there are guidelines around inclusive hiring as in diversity, DE&amp;I but actually how to attract talent, best practice in recruitment regardless of any kind of diversity. I\u2019ve never seen that in this industry.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Nor have I. So, what I\u2019m noticing is coming back to your earlier point, so the client doesn\u2019t have as much money, which means the agency doesn\u2019t have enough margin, which means it is important that you get bumps on seats that are decent. So, then you go transactional recruitment makes total sense until you get to the point where it doesn\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p>Where the whole thing comes down. It\u2019s the same with kind of internal recruitment that I\u2019m watching going on as well. Like massive pieces of business are being won, and then we\u2019re using internal recruitment consultants from different mark, it is our wild ride and there is no short cutting it.<\/p>\n<p>Recruitment is heart\u2019s log. It is getting to know somebody. It is sitting across from them and unpicking and unpicking, questioning, questioning, questioning. Someone said to me the other day, \u201cThank you for asking me questions.\u201d \u201cSorry, what do you mean?\u201d None of it. So, there\u2019s kind of this other thing where a lot of the time talent go into interviews, whether it\u2019s with agencies, with other recruiters, with whomever, and they get monologued at.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Yeah. I mean, I see that, I see that. I mean, it\u2019s-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>With certainty. The only thing I know for sure that when people go, \u201cWhat do you think\u2019s going on in the industry?\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cI have no idea. I cannot read out a love of money.\u201d You\u2019ve looked at it for 20 years, the more I look at it, the less I know.<\/p>\n<p>So, then you\u2019ve got the person with 20 years\u2019 experience that\u2019s the most unsure and the person with six months\u2019 experience, that\u2019s the most unsure and now what world are we living in.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Recipe for disaster.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Totally. And that\u2019s kind of the posturing versus professionalism that all of us are kind of running into.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>But it\u2019s worth talking about because it\u2019s so fundamentally important.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>But then also, I don\u2019t want to do that thing where it sounds like I\u2019m shitting on other people\u2019s ambition or their ability to be able to kind of come in and make their own mark, because everyone has their place and the industry is big enough for all of us but it does mean that you need to do things properly.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Look, I mean, I think I agree. I mean, of course, and like I said before, there are other good marketing consultancies out there, just as there are other good \u2014 and I\u2019m seeing in the news as a new recruitment consultancy just being launched.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>It happens every week these days.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Which actually looks quite interesting in terms of the people involved and how they\u2019re proposing their approach stuff. But it\u2019s the same, the cream rises to the top, I think. Well actually, now, let me rephrase that, the cream should rise to the top, but I think the fundamental problem we\u2019ve been talking about is that in recruitment, it\u2019s not always the case.<\/p>\n<p>Because you do get some very transactional, you do get some very unnuanced hires, and you do get people who don\u2019t do the due diligence in making sure the people are right for the role and the role is right for the people. So, that and therein lies the problem but that\u2019s why you\u2019re still doing what you do.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>So, let me put a finer point on that, because otherwise I feel like I\u2019m just kind of screaming at the abyss. So, halfway through last year, there was this influx of talent out of the UK that had come in and they were kind of senior account manager, account director level.<\/p>\n<p>They were saying that they were having interviews prior to turning up in Australia, and they were told that they\u2019d be paid 110, 120. So, they arrive, they\u2019ve got their working holiday visa, they come into my office, there\u2019s a number. I\u2019m like, \u201cThat\u2019s not the number.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>They\u2019ve been brought over into an international market on an entirely false premise, come on that\u2019s not okay. Collectively we\u2019ve got to go, let\u2019s shut that down, let\u2019s not do that. Or when people start talking about numbers without having any fundamental understanding about how we calculate these numbers, again, can we stop doing that, very destructive for all of us.<\/p>\n<p>And just from a mental health perspective, these young kids are running around thinking everyone else is getting paid more than them and that\u2019s not healthy either. So, there are some things that I think are dangerous, might be too fine a point, but they\u2019re certainly undesirable and I do think we need to work out a way to kind of move that on somehow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>I think COVID didn\u2019t help that scenario. I think that churn has been an increasingly difficult challenge. Poaching for salaries that are only going to set people up for failure in the long run has been a challenge.<\/p>\n<p>Like you say, excuse the whole market, and then by the time those people are, I mean that example of wrong salary being quoted and then they\u2019re getting over here by the time that one thing\u2019s happened by the time they\u2019re here, it\u2019s just not accurate.<\/p>\n<p>And even if it ever was accurate, so it\u2019s challenging without regulation and that\u2019s why it\u2019s where the code of conduct and stuff, that just thought just came to me because like I say, I\u2019ve never seen one.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Imagine me writing a code of conduct for anything Ellie, for anything.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>We can do it together, don\u2019t worry, you and me. We\u2019re going to write this.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Belinda Lodge writes a code of conduct, dear God.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Stand over my shoulder and I\u2019ll translate your words into something that\u2019s usable, how about that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Sure.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>We\u2019ve sort of touched on this throughout, it\u2019s kind of been threaded, you can\u2019t not talk about it, but I can\u2019t talk to a recruitment consultant and not ask about working from home as a concept, as a thing that has developed.<\/p>\n<p>What\u2019s your take? What are you seeing from agencies and candidates? What\u2019s your view on the WPP mandate that has been in the subsequent protests and stuff like that? How do you read all that stuff?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>There are people far smarter than I that can\u2019t work this out. So, I don\u2019t proclaim to know the answer because I think it\u2019s extremely complicated. What does happen though is price becomes the key negotiating, attraction tactic if you don\u2019t give somebody anything other than just a salary. So, that\u2019s where you start to see people leaving jobs for seven grand more or eight grand more or fairly kind of nominal sums.<\/p>\n<p>And again, that goes back into that kind of transactional way of treating people and skill sets as they move in and out of agencies. I also think that we as an industry are trying to reconcile how we collaborate from screens.<\/p>\n<p>Again, I\u2019ll age myself, I was taught there\u2019s nothing better in a room than a strategist, an ECD and a suit doing their thing. Like you\u2019d see this all the time and you just go, \u201cDear God, that\u2019s good.\u201d And you can tell the difference between the guys that are galvanized and the guys that aren\u2019t, you just can, you can pick it in \u2026<\/p>\n<p>So, again, this goes to, I think there\u2019s a point where you can\u2019t fake it in ad land. There comes a point where people go, \u201cEmperor\u2019s got no clothes,\u201d so there is something in that. But again, I go back to, I live in Port Melbourne, so asking me to go to St Kilda Road is fundamentally different to asking somebody who\u2019s in Werribee or in Carrum Downs to come into the office five days a week and tackle the traffic.<\/p>\n<p>So, I think the answer is going to be somewhere in between but my natural inclination is if we are all together, we are stronger. Does that mean five days a week in the office? Maybe not. Does it mean a lot of time in the office? I would suggest so, I would suggest so.<\/p>\n<p>And again, it goes back to we need to give people a reason to come in. We need to, and some agencies do this beautifully. There are some agencies that have no problems in bringing people back in.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Yeah, true. That\u2019s true.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Like, just no problems at all.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>And I know I visit a lot of agencies and you see like you do, and I see the empty offices and I see the full offices, and it\u2019s kind of that simple.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>And again, this goes back to when every job ad on LinkedIn starting to say, \u201cYou only have to come in two days a week,\u201d what they\u2019re not saying is the best agencies have got people in four.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Yeah, that\u2019s very true.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s not what they\u2019re saying.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m kind of glad, that wraps up a lot of what we\u2019ve just been talking about into one sense.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>But no one\u2019s going to be the first person, no one wants to be the first person going, \u201cHey, we\u2019re all back and it\u2019s working out millhouse,\u201d everything\u2019s coming up but it is, there\u2019s more stories than that than not. It\u2019s just we\u2019re not talking about it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>I think one of the \u201cfirst\u201d has been WPP, who have taken a different approach. They just said, \u201cYou\u2019re coming back, whether you like it or not.\u201d They\u2019ve not said that-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Come on WPP.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Global mandate is really like that\u2019s, whoa. I mean, having worked across Asia, all sorts of different markets, the UK, Australia, I mean, God just culturally it\u2019s so different and to just sort of come down on high like that, wow, regard, I mean, of course-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>I could see it coming though, right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>I mean they\u2019re interested in the value of their property, they\u2019re interested. I mean, it\u2019s not just about people, it\u2019s really not about people at all.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>I was going to say if it even is about them at all.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s very commercial.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Yes, it is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>But even so, it\u2019s a kind of wow bold thing to do.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>But also no one likes being told. I don\u2019t like being told and certainly not clever people, don\u2019t tell clever people what to do all the time.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>They\u2019ve got options.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>It just doesn\u2019t seem smart.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>There will be people much clever than me at WPP headquarters in London just who have crunch numbers and who have attributed at a reasonable loss of talent, exodus of talent, and have calculated for that and have budgeted for that and everything else.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m sure they\u2019ve thought it, they\u2019re not stupid. They\u2019ve thought they\u2019ll have thought it through. They\u2019re one of the most successful holding companies in the world and good luck to them. But it didn\u2019t chime with the sentiment of the time.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Nope. That went down like a cup of cold soup, Ellie. Like a cup of cold soup.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Maybe it\u2019s worked out well for you. Again, without having any names, we\u2019ve left some candidates out.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>But again, it\u2019s this thing of we are creatives, we move differently, we are just different creatures and typically my experience is we don\u2019t like being told and mandates, yeah, don\u2019t love those. Just in general we don\u2019t love mandates.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s a human thing but yeah, definitely. Look, we\u2019ve talked about lots of challenges. Let\u2019s finish with a positive here. And I\u2019m conscious of, oh my God, we\u2019ve been talking a long time. Let\u2019s finish with a positive view. Let\u2019s just talk about Australia for a minute.<\/p>\n<p>We both love Australia. I\u2019ve been here since 2007. I don\u2019t think it was that long until I met you after that actually. You\u2019ve been in this market clearly for a long, long time, I\u2019ve focused, reemphasized, what do you love about the Australian industry and amidst all the challenges, what gives you hope for the future?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>We are just clever, we\u2019re clever. I just think we\u2019re that good. I go into meetings and I walk out and I\u2019m still hill clicking 20 years on. The people that work in our industry are brave and well-read and well-traveled and scrappy and a bit broken. And they\u2019re just interesting creatures that kind of want to put interesting thoughts, ideas, work into the world.<\/p>\n<p>There are agencies that are genuinely doing amazing stuff and the agencies that are doing the most amazing things are the ones that aren\u2019t posturing or speaking about it. We were one of the first industries to adopt pay parity. It was just done by senior women really quietly in the background.<\/p>\n<p>It was one of my favorite things and no one will ever know that about us. I\u2019ve had people move things around to make sure maternity leaves were paid out when they didn\u2019t have to be. There\u2019s this just amazing kindness and generosity that advertising has.<\/p>\n<p>And to quote my husband, Otis always says to me, \u201cAdvertising are the cool kids of the business community. And like all cool kids, you guys don\u2019t know you\u2019re the cool kids,\u201d and I kind of feel that about ad land.<\/p>\n<p>I think the coolest people I\u2019ve met work in advertising and wherever there are great humans, you\u2019re going to find great work, great thinking, great connection, something good will always happen if you put great humans together in a room. Always, always, always.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s really interesting when you talk about this kind of kindness and generosity. You find that whenever you talk to someone about your experiences or whenever I talk to someone about my experiences in advertising and they work in the law or retail or any other sort of profession, they\u2019re always shocked. And it\u2019s like the shock is wow, it\u2019s kind of like the wild west, you don\u2019t have-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Where I belong.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>But what about your salary bands? What about HR? What about protocols? And it\u2019s not that we don\u2019t have those things, but it\u2019s just much more amorphous and tenacious in the way people apply that as opposed to the much more rigid systems that you would find as a matter of course in many other industries.<\/p>\n<p>I think part of that\u2019s how we\u2019ve grown up with it, part of it is because we\u2019re not a vocational industry in the same way, you don\u2019t have to have seven years of advertising degree to be like, no, it\u2019s not like psychotherapy, for example.<\/p>\n<p>And obviously constraints and rigidity is really important in the medical profession, for example. Of course, you wouldn\u2019t want advertising people to be operating on your brain, would you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s like maybe writing a code of conduct book.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>I still stand by that idea even though you\u2019ve trashed it. But I still stand by it. I do, I think that\u2019s something to be celebrated and it doesn\u2019t make other industries wrong, and we sort of, we do leverage that. And I do think-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s a beautiful articulation. It doesn\u2019t make other industries wrong, but it does make us right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>I think it does. And you see it every time with people being, \u201cWow, you did this, you did that.\u201d You raised and I\u2019m not naming names, but real example, you raised 70 grand for someone whose child was in a difficult position and just was in the industry and suddenly you\u2019ve got that person\u2019s space on four corners to talk about their \u2026 I mean, that\u2019s incredible and is it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>And the best of us is done in the dark.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>You realize that we\u2019re in our own little bubble though. Because you said, oh geez, we\u2019re not actually the norm. And for all the bad stuff that\u2019s in our industry and we do have tall poppy syndrome and people love to tear at it, but oh my God, there\u2019s so much that\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>And I think as long as there are good people around, which there are, I don\u2019t see that ever stopping regardless of mandates and working from home and challenges around salary and all of the other stuff and work, we\u2019ve all still got to do around DE&amp;I and female parity and all of that stuff.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>But there are people doing that work.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>There are people doing that work.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>And the people that are doing it are the ones that aren\u2019t speaking about it. And it\u2019s the people that are speaking about it that aren\u2019t doing the work. It\u2019s a very strange thing. It\u2019s very strange. The best of us is not on LinkedIn, it\u2019s not on campaign brief, the best of us, whispers.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Well, we\u2019re about to be on LinkedIn, so we\u2019re breaking. Hey look, it has been fascinating. Thank you so much. I\u2019ve really enjoyed that conversation. I think we covered a hell of a lot of ground and you have put your own inimitable spin and opinion on some look what is, let\u2019s not all joking aside, the people are the fuel of this industry.<\/p>\n<p>And without good practices in recruitment, whether it comes from a consultant or it comes from anyone else, that\u2019s a big risk to us. So, thank you for doing the work that you do and all the best with iPopulate as we go through 2025. Thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>I can\u2019t thank you enough, Ellie. What a joy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Thank you so much.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Belinda<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Shall we lunch?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ellie<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<p>Yes.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Belinda Lodge is the founder and CEO of iPopulate, a well-known recruitment agency for advertising professionals. 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